[ArtPE]

Originally Posted by carnuts3

I didn't know that this was a political forum... In any event, I think I know what political party you are affiliated with.

I'm a registered Republican, for 30 years...voted for both Bush's first time each...gave them a chance, they failed...

alot of us feel the war is bad, and was avoidable...precipitated by lies...

you know absolutely nothing about me...but I'll share a bit:
US Army Officer for 6 years, 82nd Inf Div (ABN) & 1/75th Inf Rgt (Ranger)
practicing engineer
believe in the death penalty, as long as it's applied uniformly/fairly
believe in a balanced budget
NRA lifetime member, and carry a gun legally when I feel the need
against abortion, but it's not my choice, it's hers...

anything else you want to know before you internet judge me?

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

...
anything else you want to know before you internet judge me?

Touche, nice one Art.

[malter2.0]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

trust in family is implicit, although may not be warranted...

trust in employees is earned, respect is implicit...this is a business contract, not a relationship
after a while we turn access on...
it's my dime, my rules...
they are on probation for 3 months...
and we don't consider them professionals until they are licensed, which takes 4 to 10 years usually...
until then, they are 'in training', after they graduate and pass the first test...

we all know how much time can be wasted on the internet during the work day, myself included, that's why I did it...

no one seemed to complain when we handed out bonues avg 5k for those guys...
we have very low turnover...

civil and maybe mechanical are the only two engineering disciplines that really need PE license. technically, a professional is anyone displaying a good set of manners in business environment. same goes for engineers. there are people in my field who have 30 years of ChE experience without PE license. they are by any definition professionals.

in my opinion, while trust is definitely earned, you also need to have a littlebit beyond just a contract. rigid management breeds passive-aggressive employees. seen it over and over again in my measly 7 years of experience.

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

for every person who says the debt is bad, you'll find on who says it doesn't matter...

depends on what is was used for:
needless war, bad
overblown defense budget (>1/2 of the discretionary spending), bad
tax cuts for the wealthiest, bad
healthcare, good
edecation,good
infrastructure, good

and even these are open to debate...they are all opinions, not facts, and can never be proven/validated

one thing for sure, the bill will become due some day

Absolutely! These are all a matter of opinion. It's interesting to see - and I'll take one of these on - that you state:

"tax cuts for the wealthiest, bad"

While I *emotionally* agree w/ you, as a professional economist I can't agree w/ this statement - much as I desire to! For one: the top 1% (so let's assume this percentile equates to "wealthy") pay more taxes as a % / GDP than was the case in the 1960s for e.g. when Kennedy lowered the top marginal tax rate.

For another: from a macro perspective one can well argue that lower tax rates at the top marginal rates are more stimulative to the economy than an equal % cut at the lower levels. Why? Due to behavior (tax shelters and investment potential).

I'm not a registered Republican so when I weigh in on this it's purely from my macro perspective, not the ideological on this issue. I can PM you a decent review of some tax issues in an op ed.

One last point: the Labor govt (in many ways left of the Dems' platform here) in Australia did the following:
(1) removed fully the dividend tax ("double taxation")
(2) lowered the top marginal rates
(3) lowered corporate tax rates
(4) no estate taxes
(5) lowered cap gains' tax

And the Aussie economy boomed and govt runs a surplus. The conservative govt inherited this mandate - and my nephew is now highly involved in the new Treasury Dept.'s policy there (recently back to Labor rule), is a Labor party voter, and he says they are not considering repealing (1) - (5).

As far as the "bill coming due" goes: As long as we have open markets, discrete property rights, democratic processes, and foreigners can earn a RoC > their CoC, then they will have no problems w/ meeting our capital requirements. It makes too much sense to them. Whether we *want* to sell our assets or take on more debt is another matter... for we do have to pay them their RoC.

[Brandon26pdx]

Originally Posted by Los Angeles

I'm sure if there was an over $700k option, that would probably be most voted as well.

:

I'd laugh my butt off at all the liars if that were the case...that's pretty rarefied air as annual incomes for single earners go. Point taken though; everyone's a big baller on a sports car internet forum.

[Voltigeur]

-

How does $1.5m/ A DAY sound?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/ap...hedg-a27.shtml

[GregW / Oregon]

/thread

[ruff]

Originally Posted by jtown

How is it reasonable to make sub $50k and buy a $70k car?

Have you heard of the term having no debt? Translation: not paying interest to someone who is already a lot richer than you and getting richer off you by the minute as you continue to sinker deeper into debt. In addition, have you heard about this term: Delayed gratification or actually saving money and not buying something until you can afford it, translation: being in the position to make your purchases with green backs and thus actually owning what you purchase rather than your lender owning it and you paying interest on something they own.

So to answer you question, it is not how much money you make, but what you do with the money you make, translation: purchasing an M3 no matter your financial position is a poor financial move. It means you pay higher taxes including an enjoyable gas guzzler tax that even gas sucking SUV owners do not have to pay and best of all, your investment is guaranteed to lose a small boat load of money every single year you own it.

So Jtown is it reasonable for someone as "rich" as you to purchase an M3?

[nusevad]

Originally Posted by GregW / Oregon

/thread

seriously...

[ajminn]

wow. i was hoping this thread would help people see where they stand when making their decision to buy/lease the car. some people make the value judgment that a 60k+ car is a good choice while living at home. others are in their 30s, 40s, 50s and have been working hard to justify buying this car. i do admit, my statement wasn't accurate when i said there were plenty of jobs out of school, and i did mean grad school, that paid 150k+. i guess it's a problem of being around peers and that environment. by no means is it easy to come out of any professional school and find a job that pays that well, but my point is that it does happen, and it does happen with some regularity for those that are in the right position/school. i don't take offense to people who are/were skeptical because, let's face it, there are always going to be trolls. but, i had hoped that this poll would give me some information as to where the majority of m3 owners were in terms of income. personally, i didn't want to make a stupid financial decision of buying a car that i could not afford, and having never earned a salary that high before, i had no references to measure my decision by.

[ArtPE]

Originally Posted by malter2.0

civil and maybe mechanical are the only two engineering disciplines that really need PE license. technically, a professional is anyone displaying a good set of manners in business environment. same goes for engineers. there are people in my field who have 30 years of ChE experience without PE license. they are by any definition professionals.

in my opinion, while trust is definitely earned, you also need to have a littlebit beyond just a contract. rigid management breeds passive-aggressive employees. seen it over and over again in my measly 7 years of experience.

really? I'm an electrical and can not sell engineering services without a license...this is true for all 50 states, PR and Canada...there are corporate exemptions if you sell material, not services, but even they usually have one PE for legal purposes...

in our business, you can not even put 'engineer' on your business card until you are licensed...period...you can not make decisions without the direct supervision and concurrence of the engineer in 'responsible charge'...period

I will not jepordize my emplyees livelyhoods by violating law or the binding code of ethics...or 'trusting' someone that isn't a PROVEN quantity...

re: trust
it's earned, were you ever in the Military? until I work with someone, I will not trust them...I don't KNOW them...
family members fuk each other over all the time...a stranger of the street? come on

by turning the internet off, we are helping them, some folks have a problem with it, and this allows them to focus on work and suceed...

it's our policy
they sign an agreement
and we have more applicants than openings
a very low turnover
1/2 the company >25 years...

fyi: http://www.ncees.org/exams/professional/ all the licensed disciplines...get licensed!

• PE Agricultural
• PE Architectural
• PE Chemical
• PE Civil
• PE Control Systems
• PE Electrical and Computer
• PE Environmental
• PE Fire Protection
• PE Industrial
• PE Manufacturing (This exam is not being offered after October 2003.)
• PE Mechanical
• PE Metallurgical and Materials
• PE Mining and Mineral
• PE Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering
• PE Nuclear
• PE Petroleum
• PE Structural I
• PE Structural II
• PS Land Surveyor

I'm licensed in 3
elec
mech
control systems

[ArtPE]

I know a couple of things:
I don't have the answer, you don't, and apparently no one does!

it's a class divisive issue, not good for our Country, we need to focus on the external issues, not engage in internal bickerin...we are in a holding pattern...

as far as the rate for the top say 5%, it has gone up...
but I would venture their income to avg earned ratio has gone up a lot more...

since the bottom 50% or so pay like 10% of the taxes (the bottom 30-35% pay none, they are too poor to pay taxes!, that's messed up)

that means the upper 50% must pay 90%, simple math...and the % will climb with earnings...doesn't every country in the world do this with their income tax? makes me think there may not be a 'better' way...some countries base speeding fines on earnings...

so unless we whack the budget big time:
10% interst on the debt (try getting that at a bank )
20 healthcare, and growing
20 SS, and growing
30 defense
20 EVERYTHING else

plus we are running a deficit...15% of the budget itself!

I was raised by depression era immigrants, without a HS education, and they died wealthy AND happy...simple rule, if you can't afford it, learn to tell YOURSELF no...

Originally Posted by Voltigeur

Absolutely! These are all a matter of opinion. It's interesting to see - and I'll take one of these on - that you state:

"tax cuts for the wealthiest, bad"

While I *emotionally* agree w/ you, as a professional economist I can't agree w/ this statement - much as I desire to! For one: the top 1% (so let's assume this percentile equates to "wealthy") pay more taxes as a % / GDP than was the case in the 1960s for e.g. when Kennedy lowered the top marginal tax rate.

For another: from a macro perspective one can well argue that lower tax rates at the top marginal rates are more stimulative to the economy than an equal % cut at the lower levels. Why? Due to behavior (tax shelters and investment potential).

I'm not a registered Republican so when I weigh in on this it's purely from my macro perspective, not the ideological on this issue. I can PM you a decent review of some tax issues in an op ed.

One last point: the Labor govt (in many ways left of the Dems' platform here) in Australia did the following:
(1) removed fully the dividend tax ("double taxation")
(2) lowered the top marginal rates
(3) lowered corporate tax rates
(4) no estate taxes
(5) lowered cap gains' tax

And the Aussie economy boomed and govt runs a surplus. The conservative govt inherited this mandate - and my nephew is now highly involved in the new Treasury Dept.'s policy there (recently back to Labor rule), is a Labor party voter, and he says they are not considering repealing (1) - (5).

As far as the "bill coming due" goes: As long as we have open markets, discrete property rights, democratic processes, and foreigners can earn a RoC > their CoC, then they will have no problems w/ meeting our capital requirements. It makes too much sense to them. Whether we *want* to sell our assets or take on more debt is another matter... for we do have to pay them their RoC.

[malter2.0]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

really? I'm an electrical and can not sell engineering services without a license...this is true for all 50 states, PR and Canada...there are corporate exemptions if you sell material, not services, but even they usually have one PE for legal purposes...

yes, really. not everyone is selling engineering services. there are sub-fields/careers in every discipline of engineering where you might need PE license. there are others where you don't need it.

in our business, you can not even put 'engineer' on your business card until you are licensed...period...you can not make decisions without the direct supervision and concurrence of the engineer in 'responsible charge'...period

right, in your business. not everyone does your business or has a need for PE. i work for pharmaceutical industry and the only engineers that need PE are the ones involved with building construction, deal with setup of utilities inside of facilities. knowledge of FDA regulation is another beast, which has absolute ZERO relation with PE license.

re: trust
it's earned, were you ever in the Military? until I work with someone, I will not trust them...I don't KNOW them...
family members fuk each other over all the time...a stranger of the street? come on

Are you implying meaning of trust can only be learnt in Military? Wow! If you are half way decent manager you should be able to judge whether your subordinate is doing his job or not, regardless whether he has internet at work or not. All my bosses (past and present) knew how long it takes to finish a task, because they went through same thing.

fyi: http://www.ncees.org/exams/professional/ all the licensed disciplines...get licensed!

• PE Agricultural
• PE Architectural
• PE Chemical
• PE Civil
• PE Control Systems
• PE Electrical and Computer
• PE Environmental
• PE Fire Protection
• PE Industrial
• PE Manufacturing (This exam is not being offered after October 2003.)
• PE Mechanical
• PE Metallurgical and Materials
• PE Mining and Mineral
• PE Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering
• PE Nuclear
• PE Petroleum
• PE Structural I
• PE Structural II
• PS Land Surveyor

I'm licensed in 3
elec
mech
control systems

I don't have a need to get licensed. In my field it is a not a requirement or even remotely needed. Not a single colleague of mine is PE, older or younger.

[ArtPE]

Originally Posted by malter2.0

yes, really. not everyone is selling engineering services. there are sub-fields/careers in every discipline of engineering where you might need PE license. there are others where you don't need it.

right, in your business. not everyone does your business or has a need for PE. i work for pharmaceutical industry and the only engineers that need PE are the ones involved with building construction, deal with setup of utilities inside of facilities. knowledge of FDA regulation is another beast, which has absolute ZERO relation with PE license.

Are you implying meaning of trust can only be learnt in Military? Wow! If you are half way decent manager you should be able to judge whether your subordinate is doing his job or not, regardless whether he has internet at work or not. All my bosses (past and present) knew how long it takes to finish a task, because they went through same thing.

I don't have a need to get licensed. In my field it is a not a requirement or even remotely needed. Not a single colleague of mine is PE, older or younger.

I also worked in bio/pharma for 20 years, mostly process design...
most of my collegues were PE's, except for the jr guys...

I did validation (FDA) of many large facilities:
Groton Pfizer
Imclone, both pilot and production plants
Cardinal Health, FL, NJ, PA
Bayer
at least 20 of them, maybe more

you name it...all the leaders were PE's

it was an example...people seem to learn it faster in the military since the stakes are so much high...I'll take that as a NO, or you'ld know of what I speak (as I do )

you know why bosses wear neckties? to keep the foreskin from falling down

dood, who do work for...I want to make sure I don't take those pills

[Voltigeur]

Originally Posted by FifthStreetz

seriously...

I agree which is why I won't continue any macro policy debates on this thread.

Bottom line: buy the car if each individual -- no matter the income -- can make the numbers work

[sayemthree]

lock thread please!

[malter2.0]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

I also worked in bio/pharma for 20 years, mostly process design...
most of my collegues were PE's, except for the jr guys...

I did validation (FDA) of many large facilities:
Groton Pfizer
Imclone, both pilot and production plants
Cardinal Health, FL, NJ, PA
Bayer
at least 20 of them, maybe more

you name it...all the leaders were PE's

Thats funny, because we have two guys with PE and they are mechanical engineers involved with construction and utilities validation. No other people in process engineering group or validation have PE.

it was an example...people seem to learn it faster in the military since the stakes are so much high...I'll take that as a NO, or you'ld know of what I speak (as I do )

Saying stakes are high is relative. Being in the war yes, getting trained to be a soldier - no. I could name you thousand situations where you could learn about trust. I grew up in war-torn Yugoslavia and was there during the conflict. Maybe we can share war memories if you have any?

dood, who do work for...I want to make sure I don't take those pills

har har har

[nusevad]

Originally Posted by sayemthree

lock thread please!

+1

[GregW / Oregon]

This thread has gotten too far OT. Not saying it's useless, just to those who want to discuss M3s.

Please get back on topic or shut up.

[malter2.0]

Agreed, however I have a problem with mine not being a last one.

[carnuts3]

Originally Posted by ArtPE

I'm a registered Republican, for 30 years...voted for both Bush's first time each...gave them a chance, they failed...

alot of us feel the war is bad, and was avoidable...precipitated by lies...

you know absolutely nothing about me...but I'll share a bit:
US Army Officer for 6 years, 82nd Inf Div (ABN) & 1/75th Inf Rgt (Ranger)
practicing engineer
believe in the death penalty, as long as it's applied uniformly/fairly
believe in a balanced budget
NRA lifetime member, and carry a gun legally when I feel the need
against abortion, but it's not my choice, it's hers...

anything else you want to know before you internet judge me?

I am neither judging you nor interested in your personal or political views. You are the one that volunteered your thoughts on this forum without solicitation. I personally don't care what political party you are affiliated with or what political views you hold - that's your business. My only point was that, for the purpose of this forum, your political views should be kept to yourself. As I previously said, I didn't know that this was a political forum!

[ArtPE]

Originally Posted by carnuts3

I am neither judging you nor interested in your personal or political views. You are the one that volunteered your thoughts on this forum without solicitation. I personally don't care what political party you are affiliated with or what political views you hold - that's your business. My only point was that, for the purpose of this forum, your political views should be kept to yourself. As I previously said, I didn't know that this was a political forum!

re-read the threads...it was on a poltical tangent before my post...

are you saying I can't contribute? I must ask for permission?
from whom? you?
without solicitation, , are ANY posts here 'solicited'?

I'm not sure you are the arbitator of what can, and can't be posted...
this is an open forum, and the moderators will dictate the boundries...