[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

The big boys have waited way to long...

And they will pay the price accordingly

For all we know their timing might turn out to be perfect. We will have to see who can strengthen their weakness first... Can the big boys catch up on the new school stuff faster than Tesla can catch up with the traditional aspects of a vehicle? As much as I root for Tesla; I think they have the more difficult challenge. Tesla's starting point was lower.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Pedal harder? lol Tesla could just pause everything for 3 years... and they would still be a few years ahead of everybody else....

want to see when BMW will make a $65k car that can do 300+miles 0-60 in 3 secs and drive it self....

I subscribe to the theory BMW could have done it anytime they decided to. They just had to devote enough attention to the goal. That's why I'm saying that it looks like BMW is getting more serious, and Tesla better not lose pace because the major manufacturers are starting to turn real attention towards the EV segment. BMW has forgotten more about making cars than Tesla has ever known. People should keep perspective. Experience means something. It means a lot.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier

I subscribe to the theory BMW could have done it anytime they decided to. They just had to devote enough attention to the goal. That's why I'm saying that it looks like BMW is getting more serious, and Tesla better not lose pace because the major manufacturers are starting to turn real attention towards the EV segment. BMW has forgotten more about making cars than Tesla has ever known. People should keep perspective. Experience means something. It means a lot.

It's great everyone is getting serious

Tesla absolutely dominates in the battery production arena

They also lead with a solid established worldwide charging standard that makes everyone else look very pathetic

[bobloblaw]

What a shame/mistake BMW made in not pursing EVs more after the i8 and i3. They may have been able to cheaply mass produce those carbon tubs, have competitive range, and a solid charging network. I think neglecting and falling behind on EVs was the main reason BMW let go of their former CEO. The people crapping on Tesla here for having poor interiors are vastly underestimating their in-house software integration, range, and charging network. Hopefully the iNext gets them back on the right track.

[skoold2003]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

What a shame/mistake BMW made in not pursing EVs more after the i8 and i3. They may have been able to cheaply mass produce those carbon tubs, have competitive range, and a solid charging network. I think neglecting and falling behind on EVs was the main reason BMW let go of their former CEO. The people crapping on Tesla here for having poor interiors are vastly underestimating their in-house software integration, range, and charging network. Hopefully the iNext gets them back on the right track.

I was just going to say the same thing about the software. The biggest edge Tesla has is software IMO.

[ron_jeremy]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Tesla's supercharger network is second to none

BMW would be very smart to ask Tesla for access to their Supercharger Network

Tesla crushes it in every other area like, performance, over the air updates, and their Monopoly of battery Gigafactories

In Norway, which have alot of chargers at this stage allready. We have a 350% increase in charging station sales, that is 50KW and up. And that is in this shitty year we're having.
So EV are maturing.
We have also 70% of all new cars sold, is with a plug socket.
I think the i next are coming at the right time, a techy premium EV with a twist.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

In Norway, which have alot of chargers at this stage allready. We have a 350% increase in charging station sales, that is 50KW and up. And that is in this shitty year we're having.
So EV are maturing.
We have also 70% of all new cars sold, is with a plug socket.
I think the i next are coming at the right time, a techy premium EV with a twist.

Norway is definitely setting the bar

An absolute exception for the most part

It's great to have choices no doubt about it

[FreeDarko]

Originally Posted by skoold2003

I was just going to say the same thing about the software. The biggest edge Tesla has is software IMO.

As another tech blog explained, the software is like google search engine. Anyone can go and build a search engine. The thing is ppl have used google already so much the data that the alphabet company is working with is so much greater than anyone else, it's nearly impossible to catch up.

Tesla doesn't use Lidar for autopilot. This goes against the industry. Instead they are using AI for their system to constantly learn using all of the cars out there. Initially the AI software is much harder to utilize but think of all the data they already have now and recently started Full Self Driving beta.

I believe it was the the Rimac CEO who said Tesla has at a minimum 10 year head start on the industry and it's only widening when you consider how vertically integrated they are.

[KRS_SN]

tesla made a few cars and sold them at not much profit and still have a tiny market share.
Big boys come in when there is profit and take things onwards.
This theory of lost ground is nonsense propagated by tesla share owning fanboys.

[Fly320s]

Originally Posted by ron_jeremy

In Norway, which have alot of chargers at this stage allready. We have a 350% increase in charging station sales, that is 50KW and up. And that is in this shitty year we're having.
So EV are maturing.
We have also 70% of all new cars sold, is with a plug socket.
I think the i next are coming at the right time, a techy premium EV with a twist.

Does Norway subsidize the sale of, or give a tax credit for, the sale of EVs?

Does Norway tax gas engine vehicles or or gasoline itself?

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by bobloblaw

What a shame/mistake BMW made in not pursing EVs more after the i8 and i3. They may have been able to cheaply mass produce those carbon tubs, have competitive range, and a solid charging network. I think neglecting and falling behind on EVs was the main reason BMW let go of their former CEO. The people crapping on Tesla here for having poor interiors are vastly underestimating their in-house software integration, range, and charging network. Hopefully the iNext gets them back on the right track.

Tesla investors gave the company the luxury of spending a decade developing this technology without actually having to worry about profitability.

Legacy automakers were not given the same even though govts started to throw subsidies at them.

[ron_jeremy]

Originally Posted by Fly320s

Does Norway subsidize the sale of, or give a tax credit for, the sale of EVs?

Does Norway tax gas engine vehicles or or gasoline itself?

Full EV has no tax until 2022, hybrid have very little tax, but it's range depends ok the tax.
The BMW i8 was cheaper in Norway than in Germany.
With hybrid longer range, less tax.
Norvegian has a goal of 100% EV sales within 2025.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Tesla investors gave the company the luxury of spending a decade ... Legacy automakers were not given the same even though govts started to throw subsidies at them.

Investors will give anyone the luxury of any amount of time, i.e., wework, nuff said. Second, legacy automakers, especially in America, wouldn't exist without subsidies and bailouts (us taxpayers still $10B in the hole) and Germany has never been shy supporting their industry with subsidies (and let's not forget about America rebuilding German industry in 50s-70s). Finally, I bet horse salesmen were pretty pissed when Ike built the US highway system with taxpayer money (not to mention the oil industry which the US military secures, and all the tax subsidies). Everyone gets subsidies and investor cash - it's not like Spartanburg is billing BMW rack-rate taxes.

Originally Posted by Dog Face Pony Soldier

My point is there's a long list of aspects of a vehicle that are completely agnostic to how it is powered. BMW has decades of experience in all of these. .... traditional aspects like ride quality and accoutrements are important to consumers. ...consumers are mature in evaluating these traditional traits and have established expectations. The big boys appear to be getting serious about developing PHEV. Tesla better pedal harder.

This 100% RIGHT NOW. BMW fucked up major with their "i" brand and abandoning e-vehicles when they had THE major brand lead. That was BMW's window to take it all, but they went squirrly probably because of the Innovator's Dilemma ...

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Big boys come in when there is profit and take things onwards.

Historically that almost never happens:

* Apple killed the big boys: nokia, ericksson, blackberry, microsoft, etc, but Apple shouldn't have been able to because they didn't know phone hardware or cellular networks
* Netflix killed the big boys: Blockbuster & every video rental chain, but Netflix shouldn't have been able to because they didn't know media, hollywood, distribution, etc
* Amazon killed the big boys: Target corp, Walmart, etc but they shouldn't have been able to because they didn't know distribution logistics, global-scale buying, etc

In every case what happens is the upstart is unencumbered by legacy organizational structures with built-in innovation barriers (big profit centers have the power, new divisions get crushed) - it's called The Innovators Dilemma and there are a ton of examples.

In this case, Tesla is innovating on software, user UI, power systems, manufacturing, etc and creating new technologies in assembly, batteries, etc that enable proprietary vertical integration drastically reducing costs (and with patented machines competitors can't have). In short, they're on the path to create a new customer experience at performance levels higher than any competitor for cost levels far below any competitor. In 2-3 years their manufacturing capabilities will be without peer and so far ahead they'll be untouchable.

It's exactly what happened with Amazon distribution logistics - you'd think Target or Walmart, who'd built massive global-scale distribution networks and know-how over decades would be unassailable, yet Amazon killed them in less than 10 years.

Tesla's weakness is their interiors *for us*, i.e., we're a market niche and clearly there are plenty of people who aren't as concerned as us about that ... but that's today. What a majority of customers will expect from a driver experience in 10 years is unknown, but what we do know is, it won't be what we like today.

Near as I can tell, the Macan S is the last lux vehicle with analog gauges, a movable shifter, buttons and knobs, etc - and 2021 is the last year.

The future will favor whomever gets the new expectations right first and Tesla is as much in that race as anyone.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Investors will give anyone the luxury of any amount of time, i.e., wework, nuff said. Second, legacy automakers, especially in America, wouldn't exist without subsidies and bailouts (us taxpayers still $10B in the hole) and Germany has never been shy supporting their industry with subsidies (and let's not forget about America rebuilding German industry in 50s-70s). Finally, I bet horse salesmen were pretty pissed when Ike built the US highway system with taxpayer money (not to mention the oil industry which the US military secures, and all the tax subsidies). Everyone gets subsidies and investor cash - it's not like Spartanburg is billing BMW rack-rate taxes.

This 100% RIGHT NOW. BMW fucked up major with their "i" brand and abandoning e-vehicles when they had THE major brand lead. That was BMW's window to take it all, but they went squirrly probably because of the Innovator's Dilemma ...

Historically that almost never happens:

* Apple killed the big boys: nokia, ericksson, blackberry, microsoft, etc, but Apple shouldn't have been able to because they didn't know phone hardware or cellular networks
* Netflix killed the big boys: Blockbuster & every video rental chain, but Netflix shouldn't have been able to because they didn't know media, hollywood, distribution, etc
* Amazon killed the big boys: Target corp, Walmart, etc but they shouldn't have been able to because they didn't know distribution logistics, global-scale buying, etc

In every case what happens is the upstart is unencumbered by legacy organizational structures with built-in innovation barriers (big profit centers have the power, new divisions get crushed) - it's called The Innovators Dilemma and there are a ton of examples.

In this case, Tesla is innovating on software, user UI, power systems, manufacturing, etc and creating new technologies in assembly, batteries, etc that enable proprietary vertical integration drastically reducing costs (and with patented machines competitors can't have). In short, they're on the path to create a new customer experience at performance levels higher than any competitor for cost levels far below any competitor. In 2-3 years their manufacturing capabilities will be without peer and so far ahead they'll be untouchable.

It's exactly what happened with Amazon distribution logistics - you'd think Target or Walmart, who'd built massive global-scale distribution networks and know-how over decades would be unassailable, yet Amazon killed them in less than 10 years.

Tesla's weakness is their interiors *for us*, i.e., we're a market niche and clearly there are plenty of people who aren't as concerned as us about that ... but that's today. What a majority of customers will expect from a driver experience in 10 years is unknown, but what we do know is, it won't be what we like today.

Near as I can tell, the Macan S is the last lux vehicle with analog gauges, a movable shifter, buttons and knobs, etc - and 2021 is the last year.

The future will favor whomever gets the new expectations right first and Tesla is as much in that race as anyone.

Netflix and amazon's successes due to convenience and range irrespective of weather or if you live in a multistorey etc. They are successful across the world.

Apple was simply a superior packaged product
Neither of the 2 apply to TESLA( inconvenience and poorly packaged) combine that with limited product range and lack of service centres and there is not a lot to be hopeful for.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

tesla made a few cars and sold them at not much profit and still have a tiny market share.
Big boys come in when there is profit and take things onwards.
This theory of lost ground is nonsense propagated by tesla share owning fanboys.

Tesla is now worth more than Toyota, Disney and Coke...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/inves...lue/index.html

[P1]

Sigh. Here we go again with the “it’s worth more than X, Y and Z”. Who cares.

[FreeDarko]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Netflix and amazon's successes due to convenience and range irrespective of weather or if you live in a multistorey etc. They are successful across the world.

Apple was simply a superior packaged product
Neither of the 2 apply to TESLA( inconvenience and poorly packaged) combine that with limited product range and lack of service centres and there is not a lot to be hopeful for.

These inconveniences you mention, while true becomes secondary concern after you take ownership.

This is from an owner with multiple M3s, SClass, Cayennes etc. Despite the better interiors, massaging seats and all the creature comforts, they wouldn't be my first choice as a daily car. Ok maybe the F80 m3 solely because I think it's an excellent rwd chassis family car.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Apple was simply a superior packaged product
Neither of the 2 apply to TESLA( inconvenience and poorly packaged) combine that with limited product range and lack of service centres and there is not a lot to be hopeful for.

A decade of sales numbers continue to disagree with that

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by FreeDarko

These inconveniences you mention, while true becomes secondary concern after you take ownership.

This is from an owner with multiple M3s, SClass, Cayennes etc. Despite the better interiors, massaging seats and all the creature comforts, they wouldn't be my first choice as a daily car. Ok maybe the F80 m3 solely because I think it's an excellent rwd chassis family car.

I've travelled at least 100 times in a model s and still bought a g05 x5 and the guy who has a model s shat himself once he sat inside the x5 so i think I'm qualified to comment too..

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

A decade of sales numbers continue to disagree with that

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its a niche product of course it will show growth. If you plot the graph of quorn or vegan burger growth in sales from 2000 to 2020 you probably will see a similar graph growth means nothing not going to replace sausages

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

its a niche product of course it will show growth. If you plot the graph of quorn or vegan burger growth in sales from 2000 to 2020 you probably will see a similar graph growth means nothing not going to replace sausages

Apple started with desktops
Amazon started with books
Netflix started with DVDs
Google started with a search box

The "niche product" argument works until it suddenly doesn't ...

... and that point usually comes once the infrastructure for massive expansion into new markets is put in place like, say, by simultaneously building enormous factories on multiple continents, creating 2 new products for different markets (cybertruck, semi), and THEN telling everyone you're spending another $12B to build more infrastructure.

Tesla is in the hypergrowth stage and will invade every niche including as a BEV parts vendor, especially when it comes to batteries ... which coincidentally is exactly what Amazon did: sold B2B services to legacy businesses (e.g., Target corp used to white-label Amazon for online sales) that enabled Amazon to build their global scale delivery and logistics infrastructure - eventually Target realized they were fucked but by then it was too late. Almost killed them.

What's happening in the auto-market is new technology is disrupting everyone and Tesla has the jump on all of them since they're built from the ground-up for the new tech.

Another example is Google - in 1998 online ads used to be a niche product too ... which is probably why advertising conglomerates justified snoozing while Google built the best internet-native ads engine on the planet ... And because google had no legacy ads business to worry about, they put 100% of their focus into online ads and now their problem is counting their $40 billion of yearly ads revenue which started out as a niche product.



It's no guarantee for Tesla, but Tesla, its products, and its competitors are tracking 100% with previously disrupted companies and industries ... which is why their stock price is so high.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Apple started with desktops
Amazon started with books
Netflix started with DVDs
Google started with a search box

The "niche product" argument works until it suddenly doesn't ...

... and that point usually comes once the infrastructure for massive expansion into new markets is put in place like, say, by simultaneously building enormous factories on multiple continents, creating 2 new products for different markets (cybertruck, semi), and THEN telling everyone you're spending another $12B to build more infrastructure.

Tesla is in the hypergrowth stage and will invade every niche including as a BEV parts vendor, especially when it comes to batteries ... which coincidentally is exactly what Amazon did: sold B2B services to legacy businesses (e.g., Target corp used to white-label Amazon for online sales) that enabled Amazon to build their global scale delivery and logistics infrastructure - eventually Target realized they were fucked but by then it was too late. Almost killed them.

What's happening in the auto-market is new technology is disrupting everyone and Tesla has the jump on all of them since they're built from the ground-up for the new tech.

Another example is Google - in 1998 online ads used to be a niche product too ... which is probably why advertising conglomerates justified snoozing while Google built the best internet-native ads engine on the planet ... And because google had no legacy ads business to worry about, they put 100% of their focus into online ads and now their problem is counting their $40 billion of yearly ads revenue which started out as a niche product.

[IMG]https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/imag...ad-revenue.png[/IMG]

It's no guarantee for Tesla, but Tesla, its products, and its competitors are tracking 100% with previously disrupted companies and industries ... which is why their stock price is so high.

their rate of stock price rise is laughable. Would put bitcoin and dotcom bubbles to shame.