[spmd11]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This is the point that nearly everyone in this thread is missing: BMW is a global brand. Tesla is not. That is a massive distinction to make ...

LOL, Tesla is not a global brand? Last time I checked, they are selling models world wide. Check your facts.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by spmd11

LOL, Tesla is not a global brand? Last time I checked, they are selling models world wide. Check your facts.

Selling product and developing for markets are two wholly different things.

Tesla does not develop products for a market other than the U.S. at this stage in its existence. It can't. Not yet.

[David70]

Originally Posted by spmd11

Tesla has 250,000 orders in 48 hours. So what do you have to say about that, mr. Scott26? How many i3's did you sell in March? Oh yeah, 332... lol

Completely refundable deposits with no strings attached for a product that you may not see for two years are far from orders. Make them non refundable deposits and you would be closer or make them 25% and non refundable and I would buy into these "orders".

If I could have easily been one of the first on the list I would have considered putting the $1k down and I don't even want one, just the possibility of flipping my place in line or the car to make money and there being no risk or downside.

On the Tesla side I will say it was a great way to gain hype and a $250 million interest free loan.

[jpdchicago]

Originally Posted by 1cleanm3

I dare anyone to take a drive in an e46 m3. It's raw, it's stunning to look at even at 10-15 years later, it's mechanical, you feel everything, the engine vibrates, the steering is great, the revs at 8k, the interior isn't all cheap plastic, and those arches(yum)

BMW we don't ask every single car to be this way, but atleast make the m cars great again.

I do not agree with that and I owned both cars.
I had an E46 M3 for over 10 years and I loved it but I am having even more of a blast with my 2016 M3. No comparison, even stock.
Both 6MT.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Selling product and developing for markets are two wholly different things.

Tesla does not develop products for a market other than the U.S. at this stage in its existence. It can't. Not yet.

Tesla was the best selling car in Norway last year..
It's being sold all over the world
What am i missing here?

[phantom701]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Tesla was the best selling car in Norway last year..
It's being sold all over the world
What am i missing here?

Not only that, you can also buy right hand driving Tesla in the UK, HK, and other countries.

Not sure where you, Viffermike, get your facts.

[Royce Martin]

Originally Posted by geddylee

How bout the option for Hydraulic Steering? I would pay for it. As far as the brand is concerned, it's big and bloated and none of the cars they make are great, some are good but at the high end price point you need more then just technical gizmos. The are no longer the ultimate driving machine.

Sales did drop but, let's not get carried away. BMW still performs as we expect from the "Ultimate Driving Machine" regardless of sales falling.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by phantom701

Not only that, you can also buy right hand driving Tesla in the UK, HK, and other countries.

Not sure where you, Viffermike, get your facts.

You can buy right-hand drive Ford Mustangs, Chevrolet Corvettes, and plenty of other U.S.-made vehicles. Does that mean those vehicles were developed as global products? No. No one can make an argument to me that either of those cars were designed primarily for a market other than the United States.

The same goes for Tesla, at this stage in its existence. Yes, the goals of the company are global in scope. But its car models, as well as the vast majority of its infrastructure development, are aimed squarely at the U.S. consumer. Does the Model 3 represent the first Tesla product that could turn the company into a global brand? Absolutely. It's not quite there yet, though.

Bottom line: North America still accounts for nearly 70 percent of Tesla sales, and Teslas weren't even available in the world's largest car market - China - as well as a number of other countries until last year.

[David70]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Tesla was the best selling car in Norway last year..
It's being sold all over the world
What am i missing here?

The government heavily subsidizes them so not too hard to sell them so pretty poor example. I question the real Norway demand without government help.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/17/t...avings-norway/

This bit of news about the tax breaks Tesla Model S buyers in Norway are getting from the Norwegian government gets to us by way of the International Business Times via the Norwegian website Budstikka, but even so, there's nothing lost in translation. The reports that Model S buyers there are getting tax breaks worth about US$134,000 for the all-electric luxury sedans are accurate.

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

You can buy right-hand drive Ford Mustangs, Chevrolet Corvettes, and plenty of other U.S.-made vehicles. Does that mean those vehicles were developed as global products? No. No one can make an argument to me that either of those cars were designed primarily for a market other than the United States.

The same goes for Tesla, at this stage in its existence. Yes, the goals of the company are global in scope. But its car models, as well as the vast majority of its infrastructure development, are aimed squarely at the U.S. consumer. Does the Model 3 represent the first Tesla product that could turn the company into a global brand? Absolutely. It's not quite there yet, though.

Bottom line: North America still accounts for nearly 70 percent of Tesla sales, and Teslas weren't even available in the world's largest car market - China - as well as a number of other countries until last year.

Could you please provide the source of information about 70%?
I believe about half cars are being sold abroad
China?
It's now decent marks as well
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-year-in-china

Back to being global company
What's you criteria on this?
It's pretty darn good for new US company to sell half of their vehicles to other countries
I guess I don't get your point
Please elaborate

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by spmd11

LOL, Tesla is not a global brand? Last time I checked, they are selling models world wide. Check your facts.

I didn't know that either. Last time I checked Tesla was prohibited from selling cars in Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Virginia and New Jersey. How can they be a global brand if they aren't even a national brand yet?

[AndreyATC]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I didn't know that either. Last time I checked Tesla was prohibited from selling cars in Arizona, Colorado, Texas, Virginia and New Jersey. How can they be a global brand if they aren't even a national brand yet?

Last time I checked, you could still buy Tesla, just like anyone else online
You just can't do it at the store in those states
Car-dealer lobbying at its best, defending themselves from growing competition
It'll change soon however. Not much they can show in defense once it's taken to court
Not the first time dealers are going to lose this battle

Why do they exist in the first place?
Why is the customer over-paying middle man for something that one should be able to buy directly from manufacturer?

Originally Posted by David70

The government heavily subsidizes them so not too hard to sell them so pretty poor example. I question the real Norway demand without government help.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/12/17/t...avings-norway/

It's not really subsidy, it's just not taxed as brutal as other cars
I wouldn't call it "help", but more like attractive offer instead

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Could you please provide the source of information about 70%?
I believe about half cars are being sold abroad
China?
It's now decent marks as well
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-year-in-china

Back to being global company
What's you criteria on this?
It's pretty darn good for new US company to sell half of their vehicles to other countries
I guess I don't get your point
Please elaborate

Nearly 70 percent is 2014 number; it's widely available. Do a Google search. And like a previous poster indicated, sales in Norway are heavily subsidized; it's not a pure figure. Neither are the sales numbers for Holland.

Truly global companies target and develop products for multiple markets. Tesla does not do this yet. For the most part, a company can start selling a product -- pretty much any product -- on every continent except Antarctica with minimal fuss these days. Does that action make that company global? Hardly.

In a still largely developmental category such as EV, a superior product will have a certain allure in places other than its primary intended market. And the Model S has had just that effect in certain European and Asian countries. However, the Model S was not developed specifically to succeed in those markets. It was developed to succeed, first and foremost, in its home market. The Model 3 will likely change that bent, especially of Tesla ends up building some in China.

More evidence: part of what Tesla is trying to do is change how cars are sold. Why has it fought so hard to maintain its showroom-to-online direct sales model in the U.S.? Because Tesla knew that if its current growth model was not successful in the U.S., it would not succeed. Part of that strategy was developing an EV that would be viable and sell well in the U.S. market. Not anywhere else. Here, first. Then, rest would come.

Yet more evidence: The Model X crossover -- the primary market for which is the U.S. because the U.S. is the only country where large crossovers sell well enough to be viable as a primary model variant. (Or: BMW didn't develop the X Series or the GT variants for kicks. They were developed primarily for the U.S. market. Duh.)

Those are my arguments. I'll stick with them, thank you very much. You can disagree all you want. My contention is that Tesla is not a true global company yet because it has not had the opportunity to become one yet. In three years it probably will be. But not yet.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Didn't take long for the doom and gloom posts to come in.

How'd their competitors do? And are you guys even looking at the numbers? People give BMW a lot of flak around here because they're building X4's and X6's....they can't seem to make enough SUV's to sell. It's their dated cars that are causing the fall. Only car models with YoY increases are the new 7 Series and the still mostly new 2 Series. The rest of the line up is a bit long in the tooth and no one ever expected the i line to actually sell in high numbers.

As models begin to roll out redesigns, that trend should change.

You're absolutely right. The doom and gloom posters should look at BMW's worldwide sales and not get hung up on U.S. sales in the early part of this year. The facts are that BMW was the Number One Luxury Car brand worldwide for the 11th straight year. And they were the Number One Luxury Car Brand in the U.S. by reported sales once again. Let's not lose sight of the fact that many of those "reported sales" from 2015 are just now being registered to real live people. You can only count the same VIN once.

That being said, all of your points are valid. They are behind the curve in their new model introductions compared to their competition. The 440i and 430i have been delayed for the U.S. market (at least twice already) and the new G30 5-series won't be out until early next year. The new 7-series models are being introduced slowly. On top of all that, they're being hit with 1.8 million Takata airbag recalls without available parts to fix them.

The X models (SAVs) are selling as fast as they can pump them out and are expected to account for 40% of U.S. sales in 2016 because apparently that's what the buying public wants.

Yes, they are definitely facing a difficult market environment with fierce competition but they're still the reigning World's Number One Luxury Car manufacturer and have been for 11 straight years now.

[AndreyATC]

I'm still struggling to capture your point
While I don't feel it's important on this conversation, curious nevertheless
Bottom line is, Tesla sells a lot abroad in many countries and will continue that
And what Model 3 is going to bring that Model S or X didn't?
What makes BMW more "global" than Tesla?

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

This is the point that nearly everyone in this thread is missing: BMW is a global brand. Tesla is not. That is a massive distinction to make ...

... and what BMW is doing now as a global brand is developing its future to continue to be a global brand. 20 years ago, The U.S. was BMW's biggest market, and its global products were often responses to U.S. market forces. That is no longer the case -- all the proof one needs is the 2er sedan that's being built for the Chinese market.

Plainly, the X Series SUVs represent BMW's focus on the U.S. market; that is where the battle for market share -- as well as profit margin -- is greatest. The rest of BMW's U.S. lineup is secondary relative to the X Series at this moment in time for a variety of reasons -- and those vehicles' development is almost totally reactionary to competitors' offerings rather than maintaining BMW's brand traits and mystique. It's a delicate balance that yes, BMW is starting to lose in the U.S. -- and Tesla is not going to help it any.

(Oh, and by the way: BMW and Tesla are very much direct competitors in the U.S., and anyone who says they aren't doesn't understand the U.S. luxury car market. Right now, Tesla holds a cult of status that's rapidly approaching what Lexus had in the early 1990s -- and we all know what it and Acura did to German luxury car sales.)

But here's the thing: BMW has many other markets to focus on. Tesla doesn't. BMW is not a large company with unlimited resources. It has to pick its spots. And it is. They're just not all in the U.S. It's really that simple.

A case in point. The recent introduction to the market in China for the new BMW 7er.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Ninong

The 440i and 430i have been delayed for the U.S. market (at least twice already)...

The 430i was always set to begin production in July of this year. I don't think they have built any for sale anywhere in the world yet.

The 440i was to start in March as it did elsewhere. Agree that it appears very quiet on that front. But I hadn't seen confirmation of a delay. I'd love to read about it if that's the case though, if you happen to have a link.

and the new G30 5-series won't be out until early next year.

Also as planned. Roughly seven years from the launch of the outgoing model, just like always.

The new 7-series models are being introduced slowly.

Again, that's business as usual.

Whether BMW is facing a sales crisis or not I would not care to comment. But new model roll outs are proceeding as normal.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

The 430i was always set to begin production in July of this year. I don't think they have built any for sale anywhere in the world yet.

The 440i was to start in March as it did elsewhere. Agree that it appears very quiet on that front. But I hadn't seen confirmation of a delay. I'd love to read about it if that's the case though, if you happen to have a link.

BMW's 2017 production schedule shows both the 428i and 435i starting production in July 2016 in Munich. No mention of either the 430i or the 440i: http://www.bimmerfest.com/pdf/bmw-pr...n-Schedule.pdf

Also as planned. Roughly seven years from the launch of the outgoing model, just like always.


Again, that's business as usual.

Whether BMW is facing a sales crisis or not I would not care to comment. But new model roll outs are proceeding as normal.

I was only pointing out the reasons BMW is facing fierce competition, especially from Mercedes, this year. BMW's new models are coming out a year or two after Mercedes. In any case, this year will probably be better than last year and if Mercedes can top that, let them have at it.

It is a shame that BMW has not yet allowed the remote parking feature for the 7-series in the U.S. in spite of the fact that they know it is legal here. That was confirmed for them a few months back. And they're sure taking their good old time introducing laser headlights.

My biggest surprise is that they have not said what's happening with the 430i and 440i for the U.S. At least I haven't seen anything, other than this new 2017 production schedule showing a 2017 428i and 435i.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Ninong

BMW's 2017 production schedule shows both the 428i and 435i starting production in July 2016 in Munich. No mention of either the 430i or the 440i: http://www.bimmerfest.com/pdf/bmw-pr...n-Schedule.pdf

Ah yes. Right - I've seen that, but not only does it not show the MY2017 430i and 440i, it also does not show the MY2017 230i, M240i, and the 330i. So it is suspect at this point. Plus the MY2017 330i/340i F34 3 Series GT LCI. Might they have elected to hold off on the 4 Series engine upgrades for the US until the LCI comes (MY2018)? Perhaps, but that doesn't explain the other models.

In any case, the 440i is definitely in production for ROW as scheduled for what that is worth.

I was only pointing out the reasons BMW is facing fierce competition, especially from Mercedes, this year. BMW's new models are coming out a year or two after Mercedes. In any case, this year will probably be better than last year and if Mercedes can top that, let them have at it.

Sure, but again, this is how it has always been. Auto manufacturers - or at least the German luxury ones - don't sync up with each other on their product releases. They all do happen to follow a roughly seven year cycle per product though.

Engine timing aside, BMW hasn't missed an expected LCI nor brand new model debut date yet, and I don't see any signs they will.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by AndreyATC

Tesla was the best selling car in Norway last year..
It's being sold all over the world
What am i missing here?

Tesla was the best selling car in Norway because it doesn't burn fossil fuel and cars that do are very heavily taxed in Norway.

Tesla is being sold worldwide but it is still getting established. It has years to go before it will be in the same category as the established brands. In any case, it's arguing over nothing. Everybody understands that Tesla is a growing brand that has shown remarkable success.

Good luck to Elon Musk and to all of those 250,000 people who hope to see a new Tesla in their garage anytime within the next three years or so. He has promised production will start by the end of 2017 but I haven't seen any promises yet on anticipated annual production.

[Black Prinz]

Originally Posted by IndotagSwizz

Looks like some of the complaints the brand has been receiving during the last couple of years is starting to manifest in the sales numbers, hopefully BMW will listen to those numbers

... and build MOAR SUV's; X7 & X9 can't come soon enough

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by Black Prinz

... and build MOAR SUV's; X7 & X9 can't come soon enough

Yep, just what the world needs - more SUVs