[1MOREMOD]

Yeah fry him.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

After rewatching this video several times, i have to agree with you. Ward did walk toward Tonys car very aggressively. A suicide move.

I've rewatched it too, i see him walking what looks like to the middle of the track. The camera follows the passing #45 and pans back for just a few frames to capture Ward getting hit. It's hard to tell, but i don't really see ward moving further down the track.

There's like 1.5-2.0 seconds from when the #45 car passes to Stewart's car hitting him. Stewart's car does take a higher line than the passing #45 car. There is a throttle blip, but that could a car in the uncaptured foreground.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by grimlock

Guilty conscience? Assuming he has one - I believe most people are only now starting to see the true colors of someone who they thought they knew..

If every driver that has thrown a helmet got suspended or thrown out of Nascar, half the field would be gone.

Throwing helmets is common occurrence.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

If sprint cars have terrible visibility, it applies to all of them, not just Tonys car, right?
So answer this question, how come everybody else, who was driving under the yellow flag, with reduced speed, about 40mph i believe, was able to see that kid, but Tony did not?

The kid approached Tony's car closer.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

One more (and last) time. Criminal liability is not contingent on intent. The terms negligent homicide and involuntary manslaughter are appropriately descriptive. If Stewart nailed the gas at 40 MPH under yellow, since there is absolutely no need, that would be enough. As a pro he is well aware what 600 HP at 40 MPH on dirt can do. Witness the guys spinning at Indy on the pace lap.

Unless the throttle was done to get the car to turn left as quickly as possible. The right rear tire on dirt track cars are much larger, a throttle blip does help steer the car left. Who knows if the throttle noise was even his car. No way to tell from the video.

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by bamboostk86

When I saw what happened I saw 2nd degree murder case closed, He killed him he could of swerved away or hit the brakes! a human is no challenge for a car ever...even a newly licensed driver would know to steer away, and a pro race driver does'nt and he hit the gas?? please... again case closed.

I would love to see you in a dirt track car, riding up near the cushion and see how you handle someone jumping out from a blind spot. You actually think these cars react like street cars, are you that stupid. People like you have no f*cking clue what you talking about and have no basis knowledge to make a case like that.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

I would love to see you in a dirt track car, riding up near the cushion and see how you handle someone jumping out from a blind spot. You actually think these cars react like street cars, are you that stupid. People like you have no f*cking clue what you talking about and have no basis knowledge to make a case like that.

You all are acting like he was racing and the car being on the edge of control. He was barely moving for pete sake.

Getting on the throttle may turn the car left but that is at the expense of the rear moving right. Right into Ward.

I honestly think he attempted to scare Ward and it ended up badly. There is no way Tony didnt know Ward was there, that argument is BS. He just put that guy into the wall the lap before and you think hes not looking at him coming back around UNDER A CAUTION FLAG? Yeah right.

[bamboostk86]

Ok smarter than everyone guy, I didn't realize you knew everything about ME! How do you know about MY racing background? Tell us o great one who sees all, can you walk on water and talk to the animals too?

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

The kid approached Tony's car closer.

I really didn't see that in the video, when the camera pans back to Ward after the #45 passes, he looks to be at the same spot, but it's Stewart that's higher on the track than the #45. It is hard to tell though.

[Groundpilot]

Ward put himself in a very dangerous spot by moving toward Tonys car aggressively. He was very close to the car that was ahead of Tony, possibly blocking his view(i personally dont think it was the case because Tony was taking the higher line). The bottom line, only Tony Steward knows what exactly took place.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

Unless the throttle was done to get the car to turn left as quickly as possible. The right rear tire on dirt track cars are much larger, a throttle blip does help steer the car left. Who knows if the throttle noise was even his car. No way to tell from the video.

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

I would love to see you in a dirt track car, riding up near the cushion and see how you handle someone jumping out from a blind spot. You actually think these cars react like street cars, are you that stupid. People like you have no f*cking clue what you talking about and have no basis knowledge to make a case like that.

He wasn't anything like "riding near the cushion". The difficulty with this argument is that at 40 MPH under the yellow, you don't gas the car to turn it left. That move is reserved for racing speeds. At 40 MPH under the yellow it's much harder to turn the car precisely if you gas it and spin the rear wheels, rather than just turn the wheel. Once again, consider the pro racers who have spun out, or whacked another car "cleaning the tires" on the pace lap. Even on pavement.

Under the yellow, at 40 MPH, you turn the wheel. Gassing the car to turn it, in that circumstance, would be ridiculous even for a rookie, much less Stewart. It's the very definition of "negligence".

For those who say people have no idea because they haven't driven a sprint car, here's what a sprint car racer said.

"I know Tony could see him. I know how you can see out of these cars. When Tony got close to him, he hit the throttle. When you hit a throttle on a sprint car, the car sets sideways. It set sideways, the right rear tire hit Kevin, Kevin was sucked underneath and was stuck under it for a second or two and then it threw him about 50 yards."

[Groundpilot]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

He wasn't anything like "riding near the cushion". The difficulty with this argument is that at 40 MPH under the yellow, you don't gas the car to turn it left. That move is reserved for racing speeds. At 40 MPH under the yellow it's much harder to turn the car precisely if you gas it and spin the rear wheels, rather than just turn the wheel. Once again, consider the pro racers who have spun out, or whacked another car "cleaning the tires" on the pace lap. Even on pavement.

Under the yellow, at 40 MPH, you turn the wheel. Gassing the car to turn it, in that circumstance, would be ridiculous even for a rookie, much less Stewart. It's the very definition of "negligence".

For those who say people have no idea because they haven't driven a sprint car, here's what a sprint car racer said.

"I know Tony could see him. I know how you can see out of these cars. When Tony got close to him, he hit the throttle. When you hit a throttle on a sprint car, the car sets sideways. It set sideways, the right rear tire hit Kevin, Kevin was sucked underneath and was stuck under it for a second or two and then it threw him about 50 yards."

This is a great post. At 40mph you simply turn the wheel and you change the direction of the car. Including sprint car. The only question is, did Stewart see Ward or not?
My guess is he did. He most likely hit the trottle to scare him, but his car drifted toward Ward catching him with the right rear tire. If they prove that Tony hit the trottle, he is going to be in big trouble.

[Meeni]

I know nothing about this type of racing, and I do not even know that Tony Stewart guy. From some of the other stories, he looks like an unsavory character, but judging him guilty of manslaughter because he has been known in unrelated events to like ass groping is just bad mob justice.

I watched the video, and here is what I saw.
1. Ward leaves his car and walks on the track with racing cars still racing
2. car 45 almost hit ward, so he appear to be walking on the race line at the exit of a turn
3. car 14 follows a line similar to car 45, with a speed that also appears similar
4. car 14 hits ward, and then starts going sideways; although they are inconclusive because of the limited field of view, we see no signs of "intent" to run over Ward from the footage

From what I see here, for all practical purpose, Ward jumped himself under the wheels of a racecar, and there was not much car 14 could have done to avoid him.



As for criminal negligence, it does not require intent, you are right. However, I cannot see exactly what could qualify here. A typical case of criminal negligence would be a crane operator that doesn't secure the work area and operates the crane over the general public. The general public is not supposed to know safety procedures, so it is the responsibility of the crane operator to ensure the safety of the public. If somebody gets killed by a falling object, there is a clear responsibility from the crane operator that failed to restrict the access to a dangerous area (or at least mark it and warn of the danger).

What we have here a a race driver racing a racecar on a racetrack, reckless driving is a normal and expected state on a racetrack (that's why it is secured and pedestrians are kept out of it...). Here, the victim of the accident is not an unsuspecting bystander that couldn't know better, it is another race driver (that therefore knows rules and safety procedures) that clearly ignore all common sense and puts himself into harms way.


I see somebody else than Stewart more at risk from criminal negligence charges, and that's the organizers of the event, as it appears they had no rules against walking on the racetrack during the race. WTF?? Such aggressive, stupid and dangerous behavior should result in an immediate revocation of one's racing license and at least a season long ban from any racing event. The complacent behavior of the race organizer puts the life of the drivers at risk (not only the stupid ones that walk the track, but also those that swerve to avoid running over them), and it smells like they do that to boost audience ratings at the expense of human lives loss, pretty disgusting and sleazy IMO.

[128Convertibleguy]

Originally Posted by Meeni

As for criminal negligence, it does not require intent, you are right. However, I cannot see exactly what could qualify here.

I see somebody else than Stewart more at risk from criminal negligence charges, and that's the organizers of the event, as it appears they had no rules against walking on the racetrack during the race. WTF?? Such aggressive, stupid and dangerous behavior should result in an immediate revocation of one's racing license and at least a season long ban from any racing event

Nailing the gas, spinning the tires, and having the rear step out as a result, as he approaches Ward at slow speed under the yellow flag would be the negligence. As I said before, the delay the prosecutor wants before coming to a decision is no doubt due to forensic scientists carefully examining the available videos for evidence of that.

There's no doubt the track will be sued also. There's no doubt there ought to be a rule against leaving your car. But there's equally no doubt that, before Ward, behavior you find beyond the pale occurred many times every Saturday night at short tracks around the country. It will be good for it to stop, but it was not unusual at all. Which Stewart knew. He could hardly have been flabbergasted Ward was where he was, after Stewart had basically put him into the wall.

[Dackelone]

R&T has a nice piece on this subject. The best I have seen. :thought.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/voices/r...h-to-judgement

[Finnegan]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

R&T has a nice piece on this subject. The best I have seen. :thought.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/voices/r...h-to-judgement

Good piece, thanks for linking!

I'm reserving judgement, but even if courts or public opinion come to a conclusion I'm probably going to keep the view I had earlier in the thread:

Last, need more facts. But as with most disasters and tragedies (e.g. bridge collapses, whatever) it's never one thing--it's a combination of a lot of factors that lead to horrible outcomes.

[imserious]

Since no one knows the truth except for Tony Stewart I'll add my guess, too.

I know Ward was stupid for getting out of the car and approaching Stewart's car to express his anger. But I guess this is an accepted part of this kind of racing culture. You don't really see that in most other kinds of motorsports because it's well... dangerous. Doesn't mean he deserved to die.

I'm guessing that Stewart was trying to punk him back, but misjudged the distance.

I'm also guessing that Stewart will say whatever he needs to say to get a not guilty verdict. Even if he was trying to blip the throttle to avoid Ward, he might not reveal this if it could lead to a negligence decision. He'll probably say I didn't see him and I'm sorry this ever happened.

I also know its tragic that someone lost his life over this.

Motorsports is aggressive and should remain so, but you gotta question whether the rules need to be tweaked to reduce this kind of confrontation.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by imserious

Since no one knows the truth except for Tony Stewart I'll add my guess, too.

I know Ward was stupid for getting out of the car and approaching Stewart's car to express his anger. But I guess this is an accepted part of this kind of racing culture. You don't really see that in most other kinds of motorsports because it's well... dangerous. Doesn't mean he deserved to die.

I'm guessing that Stewart was trying to punk him back, but misjudged the distance.

I'm also guessing that Stewart will say whatever he needs to say to get a not guilty verdict. Even if he was trying to blip the throttle to avoid Ward, he might not reveal this if it could lead to a negligence decision. He'll probably say I didn't see him and I'm sorry this ever happened.

I also know its tragic that someone lost his life over this.

Motorsports is aggressive and should remain so, but you gotta question whether the rules need to be tweaked to reduce this kind of confrontation.

NASCAR has already responded
http://espn.go.com/racing/nascar/sto...rack-incidents

[Hops128i]

i did a quick screen capture of the youtube video at the point #14 hits Ward, and a capture at a similar point where the #45 passes. It shows the #14 is higher on the track than the #45

[David70]

Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy

For those who say people have no idea because they haven't driven a sprint car, here's what a sprint car racer said.

"I know Tony could see him. I know how you can see out of these cars. When Tony got close to him, he hit the throttle. When you hit a throttle on a sprint car, the car sets sideways. It set sideways, the right rear tire hit Kevin, Kevin was sucked underneath and was stuck under it for a second or two and then it threw him about 50 yards."

Please post source, otherwise information seems very suspect.

As far as prosecution goes, not too hard to see there is "reasonable doubt" (no matter what side of the argument you are on).

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by David70

Please post source, otherwise information seems very suspect.

As far as prosecution goes, not too hard to see there is "reasonable doubt" (no matter what side of the argument you are on).

Bah, cmon, a simple Google search reveals below. Btw, the quote is from Tyler Graves, a fellow sprint car racer. Ya, he's a friend of Ward's but he stated some pretty damning things in the 2nd link.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=%22I+...ckqoLxB7HAgYgI
http://www.sportingnews.com/nascar/s...len-kevin-ward

Finally, who cares about 'reasonable doubt'? All the 10% or so in this poll are saying is that this is enough to warrant a serious investigation and criminal proceedings. To say that beyond a reasonable doubt Tony is guilty is up to the courts. The majority of you are saying (extremely dismissively) that 'Ward deserved it because he wandered onto the track, period' (read: Tony can almost even intentionally run Ward over/not take any precautionary maneuvers whatsover because Ward was stupid enough to walk on) is simply ridiculous.

We'll see.

[overcoil]

Tyler Graves ? That's like asking Tony The Tiger about nutrition.
That's a poor source for a quote. Just my opinion and not commenting on who's at fault.