[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

Stockholm Syndrome

No it's not.

We associate how we like a design with other qualities of the product. When you see good reviews pouring in, or when you drive the car and like it, you start liking its design too. As design is completely subjective.
To say that a design is a failure, you have to have some problems like being egotistical narcissistic etc.
(My taste is the right one. Designers should be fired! If you don't agree, there's something weird about you! You have Stockholm Syndrome! )

Dinosaur syndrome is worst though. If any of the toxic haters here were given the chance to make the decisions for BMW, BMW would cease to exist in near future. Thankfully they're not, and BMW is having its best years ever in terms of sales AND critical acclaim. They've never been this much ahead of their competition, ever. Not in 70s, not in 80s, not in 90s, not in 2000s, not in 2010s.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

No it's not.

We associate how we like a design with other qualities of the product. When you see good reviews pouring in, or when you drive the car and like it, you start liking its design too. As design is completely subjective.
To say that a design is a failure, you have to have some problems like being egotistical narcissistic etc.
(My taste is the right one. Designers should be fired! If you don't agree, there's something weird about you! You have Stockholm Syndrome! )

Dinosaur syndrome is worst though. If any of the toxic haters here were given the chance to make the decisions for BMW, BMW would cease to exist in near future. Thankfully they're not, and BMW is having its best years ever in terms of sales AND critical acclaim. They've never been this much ahead of their competition, ever. Not in 70s, not in 80s, not in 90s, not in 2000s, not in 2010s.

A lot of people have bad taste regardless of how much money they earn. There are others where design is not a priority. I could be something as simple as the badge or keeping up appearances.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

No it's not.

We associate how we like a design with other qualities of the product. When you see good reviews pouring in, or when you drive the car and like it, you start liking its design too. As design is completely subjective.
To say that a design is a failure, you have to have some problems like being egotistical narcissistic etc.
(My taste is the right one. Designers should be fired! If you don't agree, there's something weird about you! You have Stockholm Syndrome! )

Dinosaur syndrome is worst though. If any of the toxic haters here were given the chance to make the decisions for BMW, BMW would cease to exist in near future. Thankfully they're not, and BMW is having its best years ever in terms of sales AND critical acclaim. They've never been this much ahead of their competition, ever. Not in 70s, not in 80s, not in 90s, not in 2000s, not in 2010s.

What lol? I don't know about ahead of competition... their main competition is Audi and Benz. Benz actively made the decision to not produce many ICE cars and went all in with EVs... maybe its a mistake on their part but they don't pour any money into their ICE cars any more at all... so that's kind of an unfair comparison. Audi pretty much gave up on RS models sans Rs3 and a half ass Rs7 that they put no effort into for the exact same reason... they are fully focused on EVs now.

Now if we just break out M cars and say they are better than the current AMG or RS cars, sure... but that's because there is no competition around anymore... AUDI and BENZ have 0 interest in RS and AMG products at this point... as far as EVs, the VW group which includes Audi sold the most... BMW was second and Benz while 3rd saw the highest YoY growth (way more than Audi and BMW).

If we go back to the early 2000s and what M cars were offering w the E46, E39 etc... I would say that's when BMW was not only a little bit but absolute miles ahead of the competition... that's when Audis under-steered like crazy and Benzes didn't handle at all... since that time they've ALL caught up and 5 years ago your choice was C63s, Audi Rs5 and F80 M3... all of which were very equal and all had something special about them... V8, AWD or Handling... now, it's BMWs market because no one else really even tries to compete there because the market is SO tiny...

As far as regular cars... 5 series, 3 series and 7... again this is a dead market at this point so no one really cares.

SUVs, I'll give you that... BMW runs the show imho... there is nothing like the X3, X5 and X7 for the price.

[Prossx]

All true but give BMW some credit for the last stand in turbo ICE engine RWD manuals AND AWD super car performance with the latest M cars.

Since there is no competition, they could have easily exited the market early like everyone else. They did not. Instead they designed an incredibly dynamic and aesthetic package in the G8x platform that delivers the performance, feel, and emotional connection.

Some are still beating the big grill dead horse, and I really tried to hate for the last couple years rolling around in what is arguably the pinnacle of sports sedan design/ aesthetics, the F80. However, in person, in real life, actually experiencing the G8x design, it has a physical presence that is undeniably evocative and garners the appropriate attention and positive comments from the general public. People love it and rightfully so. Agree that BMW has knocked another one out of the park compared to the non-existent competition when they didn't really have to, and that high sales of this platform only reinforce the viability of service, parts, aftermarket support, etc. for decades to come while we can still enjoy it before the EV killjoy machine comes to completely suck the soul out of driving. Even the F8x is still in very high demand. People are paying the same used price for a higher mileage example that we did 6 years ago.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

A lot of people have bad taste regardless of how much money they earn. There are others where design is not a priority. I could be something as simple as the badge or keeping up appearances.

Reality is UGLY is in. Just because someone likes a huge grill out of proportion with the rest of the car doesn't mean they have class/taste.

BTW, Ford also had an 11% increase in sales.

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by ASAP

What lol? I don't know about ahead of competition... their main competition is Audi and Benz. Benz actively made the decision to not produce many ICE cars and went all in with EVs... maybe its a mistake on their part but they don't pour any money into their ICE cars any more at all... so that's kind of an unfair comparison. Audi pretty much gave up on RS models sans Rs3 and a half ass Rs7 that they put no effort into for the exact same reason... they are fully focused on EVs now.

Now if we just break out M cars and say they are better than the current AMG or RS cars, sure... but that's because there is no competition around anymore... AUDI and BENZ have 0 interest in RS and AMG products at this point... as far as EVs, the VW group which includes Audi sold the most... BMW was second and Benz while 3rd saw the highest YoY growth (way more than Audi and BMW).

If we go back to the early 2000s and what M cars were offering w the E46, E39 etc... I would say that's when BMW was not only a little bit but absolute miles ahead of the competition... that's when Audis under-steered like crazy and Benzes didn't handle at all... since that time they've ALL caught up and 5 years ago your choice was C63s, Audi Rs5 and F80 M3... all of which were very equal and all had something special about them... V8, AWD or Handling... now, it's BMWs market because no one else really even tries to compete there because the market is SO tiny...

As far as regular cars... 5 series, 3 series and 7... again this is a dead market at this point so no one really cares.

SUVs, I'll give you that... BMW runs the show imho... there is nothing like the X3, X5 and X7 for the price.

What the lol? You wrote so many words, there's nothing actually opposing what I wrote. And if BMW runs the show with SUVs, which are the best selling cars of the era, why did you lol at the beginning?

First of all, E46 and E39 were great, but so were the A4 quattros and C class of the era.
G80 and G30 are better than these, relative to the competition of their respective era.
As an example, Top Gear compared RS4 and E46M3 and picked RS4.

Is there ANY serious publication right now, where RS4/5 beats G80/82? Absolutely Impossible.

BMW has never been this comfortably ahead of Benz and Audi in terms of sales and critical acclaim as they are now, including early 2000s with E46 and E39. This is factual. Does't feel intuitive, because human nature always remember the past to be better. But this is the reality.

And sure, Audi and Benz are focusing on EVs, but clearly BMW is doing that too. The only difference is that they didn't fully abandon ICE models. BMWs EV models are: ix, ix1, ix3, i4, i5, i7. They don't have less models than Audi and Benz, they sell more than Audi and Benz, and maybe except ix3 they also beat the competition in most comparison tests. (The best selling EV among these 3 German brands is the BMW i4.)

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

What the lol? You wrote so many words, there's nothing actually opposing what I wrote. And if BMW runs the show with SUVs, which are the best selling cars of the era, why did you lol at the beginning?

First of all, E46 and E39 were great, but so were the A4 quattros and C class of the era.
G80 and G30 are better than these, relative to the competition of their respective era.
As an example, Top Gear compared RS4 and E46M3 and picked RS4.

Is there ANY serious publication right now, where RS4/5 beats G80/82? Absolutely Impossible.

BMW has never been this comfortably ahead of Benz and Audi in terms of sales and critical acclaim as they are now, including early 2000s with E46 and E39. This is factual. Does't feel intuitive, because human nature always remember the past to be better. But this is the reality.

And sure, Audi and Benz are focusing on EVs, but clearly BMW is doing that too. The only difference is that they didn't fully abandon ICE models. BMWs EV models are: ix, ix1, ix3, i4, i5, i7. They don't have less models than Audi and Benz, they sell more than Audi and Benz, and maybe except ix3 they also beat the competition in most comparison tests. (The best selling EV among these 3 German brands is the BMW i4.)

Audi is in the toilet, and MB is so far out in left field they’ll (dare I say it?) never be a serious competitor again in the “it’s fun” category. Very official category. In some ways things haven’t changed if you take the 2000 and 2020s. In between those eras MB made serious inroads but Audi has always played third fiddle with heavy, understeering cars. That RS4 was really special though and likely the exception particularly in manual form. But it had AWD. And it was heavy relatively.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

BMW has never been this comfortably ahead of Benz and Audi in terms of sales and critical acclaim as they are now, including early 2000s with E46 and E39.

Agree.

MB and its CEO are in outer space. Quality is worse than the worst and product design is bizarre.

Audi makes some compelling cars IMO but the market is rewarding BMW. Even Audi + Porsche together sell fewer cars than BMW.

Part of BMW's success is execution and delivering vehicles to market. Hot dogs sell at baseball games, even if the bun is soggy.

BMW for the past couple of years, because of the volume it produces in North America, has been able to get more cars into consumers' hands than VAG (Audi+Porsche) and MB. VAG and MB either partially or completely depend on Europe, a region which has stumbled to produce vehicles in the past few years.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by chassis

Agree.

MB and its CEO are in outer space. Quality is worse than the worst and product design is bizarre.

Audi makes some compelling cars IMO but the market is rewarding BMW. Even Audi + Porsche together sell fewer cars than BMW.

Part of BMW's success is execution and delivering vehicles to market. Hot dogs sell at baseball games, even if the bun is soggy.

BMW for the past couple of years, because of the volume it produces in North America, has been able to get more cars into consumers' hands than VAG (Audi+Porsche) and MB. VAG and MB either partially or completely depend on Europe, a region which has stumbled to produce vehicles in the past few years.

Benz has recovered in production and clearly moved to EV rather abruptly. Went by a dealer recently and didn’t like any of the vehicles - you’re spot on in your descriptions.

Porsche keeps volumes down on purpose particularly with 911. But 718 and rest of range was really slow to recover (has it?).

Audi really struggled for a long time, since about summer 2021, and the cars they did deliver had all kinds of problems. Ours had quality problems. Relative had engine replaced after 3k miles. Anecdotal evidence…

But what’s not anecdotal is bmw is #1 and mini #2 currently in brands. They’re accessible and high quality. Zero problems with our last 4 vehicles. iX has had some issues though, I’ve heard. But production and development of many new models has been impressive especially outside of Europe.

The other factor - and this is not a universal thing but true for us - is no ADM for BMW while Audi, Porsche, and others scalped for a while and many still are.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Went by a dealer recently and didn’t like any of the vehicles - you’re spot on in your descriptions.

I do the same - sail through the Benz parking lot and try to like what I see. Most times it doesn't work. I liked my W166 but never bonded with it the way I enjoy the 9Y0 Cayenne.

Porsche seems to have made some mistakes, mostly on the interior, on the 9Y0.2 so next car for me might be an X5 of some flavor, if I don't go for another 9Y0.1.