[CollinsE90]

Originally Posted by carve

I don't need to justify not having a kid to anybody. If that was my goal, the thread would be "Kids suck- feel free to add to the list". I've listed quite a few pros of having kids, and even brought up a family I wouldn't mind emulating. This is not a bash on kids thread.

I don't know if I want kids. The default is no, but if I want to decide to have them I have to decide pretty soon. If I could wait another 10 years and decide then, I probably would. But I've already done that, so the time to decide is soon. My spouse is in the same boat. I'm not consulting you for your permission- I'm asking why others wanted kids.

As long as we're making wild speculations about each other, you're coming across like someone who is bitter because they didn't think through the pros and cons before they had kids, and maybe wouldn't have made the decision the same way if they had another chance....or perhaps someone who got roped into having kids via spouse and family expectations and, while you love them, are resentful for having that responsibility placed on your shoulders.

I don't have kids, but I will have them one day. You're debating everyones reasons to have them with what you think is smarter, if you just wanted opinions you would of set back and let people say what they wanted to say rather than answer every single post within minutes with a debate, justifying an argument you probably just had with the spouse.

[schoy]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

I dunno, I just find that whole line of arguing to be comical. No disrespect intended to anyone. If the only way to make something appealing is to shut off the entire part of the brain that thinks rationally, and thus separates us from primates, then maybe.... oh, never mind....

No one's saying that the decision to have kids is necessarily irrational. It's the same cost/benefit analysis; it's just the variables are different. It's not about weighing economics or money; it's about weighing happiness/fulfillment/etc. And as others have mentioned, the values you "input" in this emotional cost/benefit analysis can only be done by you. How will any of us know how happy or fulfilled (or conversely, sad or resentful) the OP will be if he has kids?

[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by carve

People seem downright offended that I'm weighing the pros and cons of the most important decision I'll ever make, and looking for additional input.

It is fascinating, isnt it? Some folks are 100% they do want them from and early age, and some folks are convinced they dont. Life is "easier" for them because they are not conflicted or second guessing themselves.

Others, like you I guess, are still unsure, so you are asking for more points of view or perspectives on the matter, which I think is very smart. Different people may bring different things that you would not have though of on your own.

Even if you disagree with me, and my crazy opinions are enough to push you over to the opposite point of view than mine, then you are still better off having asked me than not asking at all.

I think what is rubbing some the wrong way is that when asked to defend their choice, they are having a hard time doing so in a logical manner, like nobody has ever asked them to think about it before. Then they cant construct a strong argument beyond vague emotional aspects, and the self doubt creeps in.

Cognitive dissonance rears it's ugly head, and to cope they slam the validity of using a list of pros and cons because they cannot use that themselves to support their own choices. After all, if you made the right choice, and you are sure you are right, you should welcome, if not invite the use of comparative analysis, since your superior position should become even more patently clear after such an exercise. Scrutiny is feared only by those who harbor self-doubt.

[number335]

I'm not sure what the objective of this thread is. Seems like OP already has his mind made up on not wanting kids. The question was posed as to what are the benefits of having kids. Yet when opinions are being provided, the OP becomes argumentative.

Bottom line, it is your choice to not have children. You don't need BMW forum members to agree with you to justify your decision.

[Q4P]

Originally Posted by number335

I'm not sure what the objective of this thread is. Seems like OP already has his mind made up on not wanting kids. The question was posed as to what are the benefits of having kids. Yet when opinions are being provided, the OP becomes argumentative.

Bottom line, it is your choice to not have children. You don't need BMW forum members to agree with you to justify your decision.

bada bing bada boom

[carve]

Originally Posted by CollinsE90

I don't have kids, but I will have them one day. You're debating everyones reasons to have them with what you think is smarter, if you just wanted opinions you would of set back and let people say what they wanted to say rather than answer every single post within minutes with a debate, justifying an argument you probably just had with the spouse.

To offer my perspective on the point- especially if I disagree with it (e.g. kid as a retirement plan). It's a discussion...an exchange of ideas. Maybe they considered that perspective, and had a unique solution.

Now that I think of it, I'd also be interested in hearing in people's expectations of what kids would be like and how that compared to the reality.

How will any of us know how happy or fulfilled (or conversely, sad or resentful) the OP will be if he has kids?

That's the thing...I have no idea, so I'm wondering how anyone knows. People must have some idea in advance to go through with it.

[driersheets]

Originally Posted by number335

I'm not sure what the objective of this thread is. Seems like OP already has his mind made up on not wanting kids. The question was posed as to what are the benefits of having kids. Yet when opinions are being provided, the OP becomes argumentative.

Bottom line, it is your choice to not have children. You don't need BMW forum members to agree with you to justify your decision.

this

[CollinsE90]

Originally Posted by number335

I'm not sure what the objective of this thread is. Seems like OP already has his mind made up on not wanting kids. The question was posed as to what are the benefits of having kids. Yet when opinions are being provided, the OP becomes argumentative.

Bottom line, it is your choice to not have children. You don't need BMW forum members to agree with you to justify your decision.

Repost

[BMWinNorthdakota]

You should definitely fuck to impregnate at least once in your life. Thats what God made the penor a vajayjay for, duh.

[Uber V8]

Originally Posted by BMWinNorthdakota

You should definitely fuck to impregnate at least once in your life. Thats what God made the penor a vajayjay for, duh.

You know, as elementary as this post sounds, you're exactly right. Without being too religious, Our bodies (male and female) were created with the 'tools' to reproduce. Why else would they be created?

Also, in my personal belief, sexual intercourse was intentionally made to be pleasurable for a reason. Think about it

[schoy]

Originally Posted by carve

That's the thing...I have no idea, so I'm wondering how anyone knows. People must have some idea in advance to go through with it.

Women have a mothering instinct. (Many) men have an instinct to provide for a family ... or the instinct to just do what the woman wants ....

[ideliver]

Originally Posted by carve

You don't know ANYBODY who doesn't like their parents or has disowned their children?

Yeah. Any parent that "disowns" their kid has serious problems. Period.

I truly feel badly for them.

My wife and I both lost our fathers too soon, the sadness that we feel because our boys don't have grandfathers is crushing.

These are feelings that you'll never comprehend. Having kids makes me a better human being.

[48Laws]

In today's world, having children should be more about economics than emotion.

[abisson]

If your parents had the same selfish thoughts as you... you wouldn't be posting this here.

[grieverr]

Originally Posted by carve

It sounds to me like you just have a hard time putting it into words. I tried to get you started by explaining the benefits of having a dog.

It's that you cannot compare the two, and like I said earlier, you cannot easily put into words the "benefit" of having kids. Yea, a dog wags its tail when you come home. Well, kids yell "daddyyyyy!!!" and hug you.

There is no benefit from having kids. Babies are tough, toddlers even tougher, and teenagers impossible. And that's if things go well. And I agree that I'm sure having adult offspring is gonna be great, but you have to go through all the previous periods, which will strengthen your appreciation for your children.

Bottom line, you cannot rationalize it. To make it relevant to this website, its like buying a troublesome, foreign, more expensive BMW over a reliable, more economical, decent Honda. The BMW is just a better car either mechanically, aesthetically, or socially. Enough so to choose it over the Honda.

And having children is the same. Its a tough, thankless job, but for some people, extending the family, having someone else to share your life with and teach things to, seeing a DNA descendant of yourself grow, feeling the love of a child, and seeing the amazement you bring to them is worth all the other BS you go through.

Its not for everyone, and there certainly are no guarantees, which you seem to want. But nothing is guaranteed. Again, you chose marriage, but your spouse can leave you at any time. Yet you thought that was a worthwhile endeavor. My oldest son was a gift from the gods! Well behaved, soft spoken, listened to everything I told him to do. The youngest....not exactly! But we love them the same. And they each have their own personality that we respect.

Sorry for the long post, but I figured I'd get it all out. To specifically answer why I chose to have kids, well, its the above mentioned things about sharing your life, teaching, DNA, etc... Its was also to ensure that my family name lives on (thankfully I have boys). And most importantly, I wanted the father/child relationship, the unconditional love, and those moments that E92 SID described, where you feel so loved and appreciated.

As far as freedom, yea, I can't do exactly everything and anything, but for the most part, I can dine anywhere, I can take a trip anywhere, and I can socialize fairly frequently (easily 2x or 3x a week I visit w friends, alternate w the wife going out, etc...). It really depends on what you're willing to do with your kids. I have friends that took their 6 month old camping. I'm sure it wasn't the easiest thing, but they managed.

Again, and lastly, I'm not trying to sell you on it. And I certainly do not think anyone is better or worse for having/not having children. I just think you have to step out of the realm of logistics when deciding to have them or not. yes, its important to be responsible in this age we live in and the economy, but i really believe its an emotional decision.

Ok, and really, the last thing i want to say as far as the economics... We vacationed and took a trip (see?!, it can be done!) and stayed in a hotel. When I told my 5 year old we were leaving the next day, he wanted to stay because of all the fun we were having. I asked him, what about your (Queen size) bed? he said, we have this one here (we shared a full size). What about your toys?, I asked. It's ok, he said. We'll play on the beach and in this hotel room! What about your big, 3D HDTV? He replied, Dad, this one (19" CRT) is cooler because its inside the dresser and its hidden! Point being, we worry so much about providing for them, yet they need so little.

Anyway, whatever decision you make, make sure its YOUR decision, and be happy with it. Best of luck!

[MediaArtist]

Kids aren't for everyone, for many of the reasons already stated.

That being said, I love my son, and couldn't imagine him not being in my life. I've lived long enough to take many vacations to many exotic places, eat in any restaurant I've ever wanted to go. I have enough money to buy the things I want even with kids. Sure, it would be nice to have a Ferrari 360 CS in the garage, and not have to put money aside for a college fund, but one or two toys is more than enough for me.

Additionally, I can't fully explain it, but getting married and starting a family really helped me focus so much more on building my business, that I feel I actually had greater fortune because of kids, than without.

[MisterSkiMask]

I was in a similar situation, however for some reason I always thought I would have a kid, but if it was left up to me I would have put it off forever. There is no logical reason to have children, if you don't want a kid don't have one.

My wife, like most women, wanted to have one before she turned 30., and we did. I have an 18 month old little girl.

I have not decided if it is more selfish to have children, or if it's more selfish not to. I could make a strong argument for either side. I can also say that one is enough for me, we'll see what my wife has to say about that.

What I have learned is that you don't really get to experience all of life until you have a little person of your own. You don't rember the first 5 years of your life, and you don't remember seeing things for the first time, but you get to see everything for the first time through the eyes of your child.

Another thing. They are more work then you think they are, they will test your patience and your relationship. I was talking to a friend (who has two boys) and we decided that kids take your relationship down one notch (great goes to good, good goes to ok, ok goes to not good, not good goes to bad).

They will do the cutest things you ever saw, they will make you see your parents in yourself, they will make you long for the old days, and they will add pressure on you to not f*ck up.

If you don't think you can handle a kid, or if you just don't want to be bothered, then don't have one. I would also say don't wait so long that you are an old parent, it's not fair to the kid.

We are all different do what works for you.

[carve]

Originally Posted by number335

I'm not sure what the objective of this thread is. Seems like OP already has his mind made up on not wanting kids.

The point is to hear and discuss other points of view- particularly those of people who wanted kids and are happy with the decision.


It seems like I already made up my mind?


Lets see what I had to say about that...

Originally Posted by carve

Here's what I see as the advantages
*Pass on your genes
*Pass on your memes (which my wife is already doing as a teacher)
*There's a time between ages, say, 7-12 and 25+ when you can go out and have fun with them, and they're up for it too, where it might be fun.
*Hopefully have a good relationship with them when I'm old, although I think old people really need to depend more on their friends and peers for social interaction.
*Hopefully raise a person who makes a positive contribution to society.

I've come around a bit where I'm not as opposed to the idea (of having kids) as before


There's something to be said for (that's what we're supposed to do). We wouldn't last long if everyone thought like me.



When I lived in CA a few years back, an older friend of mine from Beligum had 12 and 14 year old daughters. The ideal family. Great, nice kids...liked to do all kinds of things with their parents...smart...healthy...could carry on interesting conversations with adults...responsible. I thought "hey- that seems nice. Maybe it'd be nice to have a family"

Here's the deal: I don't have kids yet because of the negative's I listed in the OP. It was no big deal to not have kids because I could always have them later. It's later now.

The next 2 years or so are pretty much now-or-never time, so I really have to start thinking hard about this and gather as much info as possible to help make my decision.

The people here who wanted kids: was this just a primal drive in you...as strong as wanting to eat when you're hungry or have sex when you're horny? You just had a barely controllable jonesin' to have kids and couldn't say why? Did you sit around all irritable that you didn't have a kid yet, like I do when I'm starving or have blu balls? Or, was this more subtle and thought out? If so, please explain the subtleties.

Bottom line, it is your choice to not have children. You don't need BMW forum members to agree with you to justify your decision.

No kidding it's my choice. When have I implied otherwise, or when have I required justification? I like making informed decisions. There are anonymous parents and hopeful parents here. I was hoping for some honest opinions that I can't ask of people I actually know. That's all.

[carve]

Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl

It is fascinating, isnt it? Some folks are 100% they do want them from and early age, and some folks are convinced they dont. Life is "easier" for them because they are not conflicted or second guessing themselves.

Others, like you I guess, are still unsure, so you are asking for more points of view or perspectives on the matter, which I think is very smart. Different people may bring different things that you would not have though of on your own.

Even if you disagree with me, and my crazy opinions are enough to push you over to the opposite point of view than mine, then you are still better off having asked me than not asking at all.

I think what is rubbing some the wrong way is that when asked to defend their choice, they are having a hard time doing so in a logical manner, like nobody has ever asked them to think about it before. Then they cant construct a strong argument beyond vague emotional aspects, and the self doubt creeps in.

Cognitive dissonance rears it's ugly head, and to cope they slam the validity of using a list of pros and cons because they cannot use that themselves to support their own choices. After all, if you made the right choice, and you are sure you are right, you should welcome, if not invite the use of comparative analysis, since your superior position should become even more patently clear after such an exercise. Scrutiny is feared only by those who harbor self-doubt.

yeah...that about sums up what I think I'm seeing from many repliers. Thanks.

[carve]

Originally Posted by FwdFtl

You know, as elementary as this post sounds, you're exactly right. Without being too religious, Our bodies (male and female) were created with the 'tools' to reproduce. Why else would they be created?

Also, in my personal belief, sexual intercourse was intentionally made to be pleasurable for a reason. Think about it

Actually, although I don't believe in God, a similar view is actually one of my main motivating factors. We are basically vessels to carry and disperse our genes (not that the trip isn't pleasurable). Without doing that, we fail at our natural purpose. Still...I don't want to look at this as an obligation or job...and like I said- our genes aren't exactly a bowl of cherries.

[carve]

Originally Posted by abisson

If your parents had the same selfish thoughts as you... you wouldn't be posting this here.

So? If I didn't exist I wouldn't lament the fact that I'm not posting this. Every sperm and ova on the planet is a potentially unique individual. Why aren't you lamenting those non-existent people? We just happen to be here.

If the human species were facing extinction I wouldn't think twice about having a litter.

And again- how can you selfishly take from someone who doesn't exist? I'm not taking anything from anyone.

Jeez....this brought up an old memory from middle school. I lived in a rural community in Washington. There was a religious sect there called "Apostolic Lutheran". They had tooooonnnnnnnssssss of kids starting around 18 (and were' slightly inbred- special ed was full of 'em). I mentioned that I might not want kids once and one of the kids called me selfish. WTF? You don't owe anything to people who don't exist.

[lopealle]

Kids are the best. Unconditional love. My little girls are awesome we play together I teach them things. I wouldn't trade them for anything