[MiddleAgedAl]

Originally Posted by Questforpower

If you dont see the clear advantages don't have kids; more than likely you're not mature enough and thats completely Ok but This isn't exactly cross shopping between cars.

Respectfully I completely disagree on the "maturity" point. The best outcomes happen when people are honest and true with themselves. Sometimes, a person who does an honest self-assessment, and then elects to not have children as a result, is actually exercising a lot MORE maturity than someone who is equally ill-suited to be a parent, but they choose to ignore the signs and plug ahead anyway because that's what their family/culture expects them to do, or what they think they want to do.

Parenting is very hard. I have immense respect and admiration for those that do it well, knowing they are pulling off a feat that I am quite certain I am incapable of. Depending on the person, sometimes having kids really does make the world a better place, and sometimes NOT having a kid makes the world a better place. Having the courage to look in the mirror and make that decision is not a sign of selfishness, it is a sign of selflessness.

[carve]

Thinks hard before you jump in, DarkCloud. Some here say to make sure you're 100% certain.

So, why does your wife want kids?

I'm a lot like your older brother. I have a half brother, different dad, that is 14.5 years younger than me, so I got to deal with a lot of the baby stuff at an age where I understood the responsibilities. If not for him, I probably wouldn't have nearly the understanding of what I'd be getting into.

[schoy]

From a purely dollars & cents analysis, then no, having kids is clearly not worth it (i.e. why invest thousands and thousands of dollars, blood, sweat and tears on an "asset" with no economic return?).

From an emotional cost/benefit analysis, then, yes, having kids could be the best thing that'll ever happen to you. I say "could be" because it depends on your willingness, ability (financial, emotional and physical), and commitment.

I have 2 kids (3-year-old and a 5-month-old), and had the same thoughts that the OP did. Ultimately, I was ambivalent to having kids (no kids = more fun; kids = a fulfillment that only parents seem to understand). In retrospect, I'm glad I made the right decision.

[Q4P]

I think people are construing certain things here. Having kids isn't exactly a positive/negative point ratio; to the me the idea of having children is a positive enough and it should be similar for everyone who wants kids (I kind of thought that was obvious). I would never decide to have kids by doing a point by point list as if I was deciding to buy a BMW vs Mercedes. It is purely your sole decision and not one that should involve advantage / disadvantage lists; if it does; you probably should not have kids. The advantages should be obvious and if you don't see them or feel it's not right for you for whatever reason; don't do it because it is indeed a commitment.

To the person that made the selfish comment; I kind of have to lean that way as well and in no way mean disrespect.

[Boosted John]

Having kids is what you make of it no one else. You can still have plenty of free time as long as the wife isn't a bitch. don't worry about what others say because opinions are like assholes.

There is also no way that anyone can compare the love and companionship of a fucking animal to something that you and another person make and bring into this world. There are many many joys of parenthood that you will miss out on and just won't plain understand unless you are a parent. Everyday that i look at my son I think how greatful and lucky I am that I have such a wonderful little boy.

[carve]

Originally Posted by Questforpower

I would never decide to have kids by doing a point by point list as if I was deciding to buy a BMW vs Mercedes.

I'm not comparisson shopping at the orphanage....the question is more like "car vs. no car". It's a lifestyle choice.

to the me the idea of having children is a positive enough

It sounds to me like you just have a hard time putting it into words. I tried to get you started by explaining the benefits of having a dog.

It is purely your sole decision and not one that should involve advantage / disadvantage lists; if it does; you probably should not have kids. The advantages should be obvious and if you don't see them or feel it's not right for you for whatever reason; don't do it because it is indeed a commitment.

To the person that made the selfish comment; I kind of have to lean that way as well and in no way mean disrespect.

OK- so don't use the word "advantage". What was your motivation for having kids?

How do you define "selfish", and how am I fitting that definition? Please go back and re-read my responses to you and Jeebus (selfish comment) on the last page. I made some edits.

[carve]

Originally Posted by Boosted John

There is also no way that anyone can compare the love and companionship of a fucking animal to something that you and another person make and bring into this world.

It's all I got for an analogy. And...damn....that was really harsh. Think about what you said. A lot of kids are adopted and that's an awful thing to say to their parents. I'm a very blunt, matter of fact person but I'd never tell someone they can't love their adopted kid as much as their biological kid. It could possibly have some truth, but it's not my place to say how much someone is allowed to love someone else.

[len56]

i think the same way.

maybe 1, max. and late. gotta enjoy time with your beautiful wife

[MiddleAgedAl]

Sorry, but all these posts from people who say you should not apply logic to this serious, life-long decision, because it's only an emotional choice that cannot be defined with reason, make me think of this old Dilbert cartoon:



I had this conversation once with a person who was trying to convince me that since he was happy with his decision to have kids, that the only good decision for everyone was to have kids. It got to the point where he basically said that if everyone thought about the pros and cons rationally like I did, then hardly anyone would have children. My response was, "and this is supposed to support your argument? That's like saying if people knew just how painful it was to stick your hand in a fire, then hardly anyone would stick there hand in a fire."

I dunno, I just find that whole line of arguing to be comical. No disrespect intended to anyone. If the only way to make something appealing is to shut off the entire part of the brain that thinks rationally, and thus separates us from primates, then maybe.... oh, never mind....

[donovan]

So excited to read this, kids are not for everyone for sure. I think people that want kids are following along the path of what they think is right.

I already have a daughter, not planned AT ALL. I do not WANT ANOTHER KID ever in my life. I would love to have the following.... 3 car garage, nice job, be able to do WTF I want. Sounds like a thing you can do, for the most part, when you have ZERO kids. Not that I cant do that now... The child is with her mother.

[CollinsE90]

Originally Posted by carve

Nice, Collins. There's a difference between emotionally fit and emotionally driven. I love my wife, loved my dogs, and as I said before I'm sure I'd love my kids and be a very responsible parent IF I had them- I'm just trying to decide whether I should have them.

*know*


Nothing we say on here will make you go out and make a baby, it has to be a personal choice between you and your spouse. It sounds like you're insecurity of not being able to buy a BMW trumps your greed towards having a chid, and you don't want to share with it.

Just don't do it, if it's that big of deal.

[carve]

Oh my God- that was hilarious. You need to repost that in the LOLpic thread.

People seem downright offended that I'm weighing the pros and cons of the most important decision I'll ever make, and looking for additional input.

I've tried provide explainations for the benefits of having a wife and a dog- the only points of comparisson I have available. All I've heard for kids is "unconditional love" (which isn't necessarily true) and retirement plan. I'M actually the one who has provided the biggest list of benefits so far LOL.

[Jebus335]

Originally Posted by carve

What the hell? How can I be selfish against someone who doesn't exist? The point is, if I had a kid I WOULD do the best I could, and I recognize all the trade offs I'd have to make and I'm trying to decide whether it's worth it. If I were selfish, I'd just have the kid and neglect it and go on living my normal life.

If by "selfish" you mean I look out for my own rational self interest, then hell yes I'm selfish, and I'll bet you are, too. It doesn't mean I neglect my responsibilities, if that's what you're getting at.

No, I don't mean selfish in a negative way, obviously you're not the bad kind of selfish, otherwise you wouldn't be married. It's just that when you have a kid, all of your wants and priorities* come second. It just sounds like you and your wife are very happy doing what you want, when you want. Why screw it up?

[carve]

Originally Posted by CollinsE90

*know*


Nothing we say on here will make you go out and make a baby

No kidding. That's not what I'm after. I'm interested in how others arrived at the "yes" decision.

it has to be a personal choice between you and your spouse. It sounds like you're insecurity of not being able to buy a BMW trumps your greed towards having a chid, and you don't want to share with it.

Just don't do it, if it's that big of deal.

Thank the FSM for that- that'd be pretty awful if someone made us have a kid after we decided not to.

I already have a BMW. It's paid for. I'll probably sell it next year and get a RAV4 or CX-5. As much as I like to drive fast & stylish, those fit my biking/skiing/camping lifestyle better. What does that have to do with anything.

Why do you seem so offended?

[driersheets]

If you are seriously going to make a thread about this, then don't have kid.

[donovan]

Screw what people think...

next thread should be, why does society think that the women deserves the best deal out of the support of a child and/or why does she benefit more and people generally take HER side?

[carve]

Donovan: due to antiquated views about gender roles that have no place in the modern legal system. Mommy nurtures and daddy brings home the mammoth steaks.

[Jebus335]

This kind of reminds me of the argument between Stan and Token in the South Park N-Word episode

[CollinsE90]

Originally Posted by carve

No kidding. That's not what I'm after. I'm interested in how others arrived at the "yes" decision.




Thank the FSM for that- that'd be pretty awful if someone made us have a kid after we decided not to.

I already have a BMW. It's paid for. I'll probably sell it next year and get a RAV4 or CX-5. As much as I like to drive fast & stylish, those fit my biking/skiing/camping lifestyle better. What does that have to do with anything.

Why do you seem so offended?

You're trying to justify your reasoning why you don't want kids to a few dozen random forum members to make yourself feel better about not wanting them. You said you think rationally and logically, well my opinion is completely rational and logical and you can't see what I'm saying.

If you don't want kids, don't. If you possibly do, you need to consult your spouse not us. It's not a decision the members on here made after using some magical formula to know if they should or shouldn't, most knew their entire lives if they wanted them. The others knew as they got older, and you've got to the age if you don't know by now you never will.

[donovan]

Originally Posted by carve

Donovan: due to antiquated views about gender roles that have no place in the modern legal system. Mommy nurtures and daddy brings home the mammoth steaks.

Mmh, tastefully written.

[carve]

Originally Posted by CollinsE90

You're trying to justify your reasoning why you don't want kids to a few dozen random forum members to make yourself feel better about not wanting them. You said you think rationally and logically, well my opinion is completely rational and logical and you can't see what I'm saying.

If you don't want kids, don't. If you possibly do, you need to consult your spouse not us. It's not a decision the members on here made after using some magical formula to know if they should or shouldn't, most knew their entire lives if they wanted them. The others knew as they got older, and you've got to the age if you don't know by now you never will.

I don't need to justify not having a kid to anybody. If that was my goal, the thread would be "Kids suck & nobody should have one- feel free to add to the list". I've listed quite a few pros of having kids, and even brought up a family I wouldn't mind emulating. This is not a bash on kids thread. Now that I think about it, I'd be very interested to hear the expectations vs. reality of having kids.

I don't know if I want kids. The default is no, but if I want to decide to have them I have to decide pretty soon. If I could wait another 10 years and decide then, I probably would. But I've already done that, so the time to decide is soon. My spouse is in the same boat. I'm not consulting you for your permission- I'm asking why others wanted kids. I'd know I'd like to have adult offspring...it's primarily the babies and teenagers I'm worried about.

As long as we're making wild speculations about each other, you're coming across like someone who is bitter because they didn't think through the pros and cons before they had kids, and maybe wouldn't have made the decision the same way if they had another chance....or perhaps someone who got roped into having kids via spouse and family expectations and, while you love them, are resentful for having that responsibility placed on your shoulders.

[mact3333]

God damn it bro...you kinda got me teary eyed and I am unemotional anti-social freak with 2 daughters...why did you have to do that....

I love my 2 daughters more than anything in this world period...but it doesnt mean I dont want to smack them upside the head sometimes(no no not Judge Adams style).

Kids are like dog love times a 1000....

Originally Posted by E92_SID

All great points. If I didnt have a kid I would be in the CIA overseas. But I do. Not only do I have a kid but I fought for and won primary custody. My daughter is 7 and it is hard. I do enjoy a break once in a while. On paper there are a lot more negatives. However, there are just some moments that you cannot put into words that make it all worth it..

Here is a great example: A few weeks ago I spent about 2 hours trying to teach my daughter 2 digit math and subtraction. I was already dead tired from work, I was hungry, I was getting frustrated because she wasn't getting it. Then, all of a sudden it clicked and she got it. She was so excited. She wrote me a note because she was so excited. All that the note said was "Dear Daddy, thank you for teaching me". That note made my heart melt and it made it all worth it.

I too am extremely logical like you. I dont know what it is though, after having a kid I have become much more sensitive to the emotional aspect of things rather then just always looking at everything from a logical point of view.

And I dont care what anybody fucking says, HAVING A DOG OR A NIECE OR NEPHEW IS NOT THE SAME AS HAVING YOUR OWN KID!!!!!

Makes everything worth it: