[742]

Originally Posted by Bobby_Light

Farming. Let me guess. You're a liberal. Government interference is what caused this mess not the free market.
..."

American farming is a free market? 25 Billion a year in farm subsidies is free market? The ethanol policies are free market?

With regard to free markets in general, we all tend to forget that while America dominated the last century economically, during that century the rest of the industrialized world conveniently (from the standpoint of American economics) blew itself up in two world wars, neither of which touched the American mainland and both of which resulted in large flows of national wealth to the United States.

[johnnymu]

17.4 billion? that's it? psssshhhh, that's chump change
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2008/12...bailout-costs/

[Bobby_Light]

Originally Posted by 742

American farming is a free market? 25 Billion a year in farm subsidies is free market? The ethanol policies are free market?

This was the question -
Name one industry that is not military related that the US excels over the other countries that have invaded our economy?

[742]

Originally Posted by Bobby_Light

This was the question -
Name one industry that is not military related that the US excels over the other countries that have invaded our economy?

The way I read it, which may be wrong, was that you were suggesting that farming in America was both successful and a free market.

But the basic question you ask above is a very good one. I don't know of any. Specialized high tech goods seem to be coming out of Europe these days. Everything else out of Asia.

[Draman]

All that needs to be said:

[Bobby_Light]

Schiff on the Auto Bailout - Intervention by Govt is NOT the Answer

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Not the best interview because Leeb is a loud mouth.

[Seminole]

Originally Posted by Tondtar

Funny you post that considering Ford is the healthiest of all the Big 3... They don't even need a bailout, the only problem for them is if GM and Chrysler go under then all their suppliers will fail (the 3 use a lot of the same suppliers) and then they would get pulled under.

I don't understand the opposition to this though. These 3 companies employ an estimated 3,000,000 people in the U.S.A alone. The amount they are asking for is only 2.5% of the amount given to the financial sector without a second thought.

Also, this isn't just something exclusive to the Big 3. Toyota will post its first annual loss in 71 YEARS. They haven't had a loss since their first year of operation. Every other automaker is starting to asking their respective Governments for bailouts. MB, BMW, and Audi to Germany. Volvo and Saab got bailed out by the Swedish Gov. Toyota, Nissan, Honda are all asking Japan for money too. The only reason this hit GM and Chrysler first was because they were already in such a fragile state.

I'm really impressed with all Ford is doing considering they don't even need the bailout. I don't know how many read Autoblog, but they just tested the new 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid and got 43.1mpg driving in L.A.! (Linky here) Not only does the new car look pretty decent (for its class) but it slaps the Camry Hybrid silly and puts up almost Prius like numbers in an attractive package. The gas powered Fusions are also expected to get 2-3 mpg better across the range then their Camry counterparts.

Also, the new Fiesta that is coming here soon can outrun baddies in Corvettes not to mention serve and an amphibious assault vehicle. Need I say more? See below:

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Lets give them them (GM and Chrylser) a chance and see what they can do.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Seminole

Funny you post that considering Ford is the healthiest of all the Big 3... They don't even need a bailout, the only problem for them is if GM and Chrysler go under then all their suppliers will fail (the 3 use a lot of the same suppliers) and then they would get pulled under.

I don't understand the opposition to this though. These 3 companies employ an estimated 3,000,000 people in the U.S.A alone. The amount they are asking for is only 2.5% of the amount given to the financial sector without a second thought.

Also, this isn't just something exclusive to the Big 3. Toyota will post its first annual loss in 71 YEARS. They haven't had a loss since their first year of operation. Every other automaker is starting to asking their respective Governments for bailouts. MB, BMW, and Audi to Germany. Volvo and Saab got bailed out by the Swedish Gov. Toyota, Nissan, Honda are all asking Japan for money too. The only reason this hit GM and Chrysler first was because they were already in such a fragile state.

I'm really impressed with all Ford is doing considering they don't even need the bailout. I don't know how many read Autoblog, but they just tested the new 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid and got 43.1mpg driving in L.A.! (Linky here) Not only does the new car look pretty decent (for its class) but it slaps the Camry Hybrid silly and puts up almost Prius like numbers in an attractive package. The gas powered Fusions are also expected to get 2-3 mpg better across the range then their Camry counterparts.

Also, the new Fiesta that is coming her soon can outrun baddies in Corvettes not to mention serve and an amphibious assault vehicle. Need I say more? See below:

Lets give them them (GM and Chrylser) a chance and see what they can do.

Frankly, don't bother to argue with idiots that don't know the industry. They are the only reason why I hope the Big 3 go bye bye. So the devastation that it would cause would effect them and cause them to be jobless( yeah, I can be very cold hearted at times ).

[johnnymu]

Originally Posted by Seminole

Lets give them them (GM and Chrylser) a chance and see what they can do.

We've already gave Chrysler a chance, that was 30 years ago with the same problems.

I just don't understand how anyone can blindly not question how our government(crooks) can steal from our tax paying money and continuiously give to these poorly managed companies? These companies themself won't even use their own money to get out of this mess and we're responsible to fix them? Fannie Mae,Freddie Mac, GM, Chrysler, and Ford. what next Krispy Kreme?

Just to correct you the 3 million employment is not accurate, but it could effect as much as 3 million jobs. Either way with or without bailout a huge percent of jobs are cut.

Either accept fate now or prolong the agony and accept it sometime down the road. I vote for now so we can start our rebuilding. It took 15 years of printing for Japan to get out of their depression, looks like we're headed the same direction.


Oh yeah, your example of the Ford hybrid is 2 years behind, wait till you see what's in store that USA is currently not allowing to come in. Hmm I wonder why?

[TMNT]

Originally Posted by bmstyle71

RIGHT because money is laying around all over the place with them. They're expected to pay back 17 billion dollars which THEY NEEDED TO SURVIVE in 3 months if they don't show viability? If they had that money they wouldn't be needing it. Bush is sitting there going 'no no I can't go out peacefully...how can I fuck these people up more....HOW?'

They'll have the money when they file for Chapter 7.

[E90ice]

it's ok. in a few months they will be back in the same situation and then we'll give them more money from our already bankrupt system

[E90ice]

Originally Posted by Draman

All that needs to be said:

[RonJon]

Originally Posted by Bobby_Light

Schiff on the Auto Bailout - Intervention by Govt is NOT the Answer

Not the best interview because Leeb is a loud mouth.

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People should really listen to this guy. At the end of the day, the US economy MUST produce more goods then it consumes. PERIOD. The current trend is the just the opposite!!!

Peter predicted exactly what has happend thus far, and he predicts it'll get much worse. I do agree with him because the US has way too much debt, they need to start producing goods and save, save, save!!!!

Consumption must come down because allot of what the US consumes comes from foriegn countries, which in turn causes the current imbalance of production/consumption.

[asdflkijd]

Originally Posted by NoKids

Bush is secretly a ninja...

[Bobby_Light]

Originally Posted by RonJon

People should really listen to this guy. At the end of the day, the US economy MUST produce more goods then it consumes. PERIOD. The current trend is the just the opposite!!!

Peter predicted exactly what has happend thus far, and he predicts it'll get much worse. I do agree with him because the US has way too much debt, they need to start producing goods and save, save, save!!!!

Consumption must come down because allot of what the US consumes comes from foriegn countries, which in turn causes the current imbalance of production/consumption.

+1

Schiff is a real expert in his field. He understand fundamentals. The thing is people/other "experts" are still disagreeing with his analysis. Get a clue.

[quagmire]

For the people who think GM is still pushing out crappy products, the new Equinox was unveiled and look at the interior. It is very attractive. Now it is CG'd to hell, but still very nice design.



Here is the current interior.

[lauer87]

Originally Posted by Seminole

Funny you post that considering Ford is the healthiest of all the Big 3... They don't even need a bailout, the only problem for them is if GM and Chrysler go under then all their suppliers will fail (the 3 use a lot of the same suppliers) and then they would get pulled under.

I don't understand the opposition to this though. These 3 companies employ an estimated 3,000,000 people in the U.S.A alone. The amount they are asking for is only 2.5% of the amount given to the financial sector without a second thought.

Couldn't have said it better myself, I also don't understand why people are so against this compared to the financial sector bailout.

I've also see reports that not only would Ford go under, but every North American producer's operations would have to shut down if GM and Chrysler went under because of their effect on tier 1, 2 & 3 suppliers.

[RonJon]

Originally Posted by quagmire

For the people who think GM is still pushing out crappy products, the new Equinox was unveiled and look at the interior. It is very attractive. Now it is CG'd to hell, but still very nice design.

That vehicle is actually built by a company called CAMI automotive. It used to be a joint venture partnership between GM and Suzuki. However since the price gas rose a year ago, Suzuki stopped making the XL7 because they weren't selling. GM on the other kept on pumping out Equinoxes and Torrents and they sat in dealers lot by the THOUSANDS.

That plant used to build the gay little metro's, and sidekicks. 5-6 years ago CAMI retooled the entire plant, it was shutdown for 9 months in order to produce "real" vehicles, ie Equinox, Torrent and XL7. Like many other vehicles in the GM portfolio, the Equinox (aka GMT191) and Torrent (aka GMT192) were not only similar to other GM vehicles, but they actually COMPETED against other GM vehicles.

If you go to a Toyota dealership and you know what class/type of vehicle you want, you will only have ONE choice. If you go to a GM dealership, you'll see the same vehicle in different skins. This does not add an value to the consumer. What it does is piss people of by "rebranding" the same essential vehicle in 2 or sometimes 3 different brands and charge a premium for a basically a different label.

GM needs to look at what the Asians are doing and COPY them. The only reason the D3 have made it this far is because;

A) For roughly 80 years they no real competition
B) For the past 20 years they've made TONS of money on trucks and SUVs, those days are long gone and they need to restructure.

Back to your point, I've both of the new vehicles fully assembled and the Equinox does look nicer, it has really round shape, but the GMC version is really square and has a bold truck look. This design is actually radically different then the current Equinox /Torrent.

btw, you'd be shocked to know that the ENTIRE engine assembly comes fully assembled from CHINA!!! That’s right CHINA. For a comparison, Toyota and Honda have Engines plants in NA, with foundries and
all!!

[RonJon]

Originally Posted by lauer87

Couldn't have said it better myself, I also don't understand why people are so against this compared to the financial sector bailout.

I've also see reports that not only would Ford go under, but every North American producer's operations would have to shut down if GM and Chrysler went under because of their effect on tier 1, 2 & 3 suppliers.

At face value you make a good point. However the fundamentals of the D3 is highly flawed and they will not survive, they need to scale back and start from scratch almost. They would have been better off using that money to restructer and or merge two of them.

The bailout is akin to pissing in the wind!!

FWIW Toyota doesn't want GM to go under because they share SOME of the same suppliers. However that number is low and it would not cripple the NA producers. (and by NA producers I mean all plants in NA, not just D3) It would cause some disruptions but not a meltdown.

The Japanese tend to make as much of the parts them selves in house (which is more cost effective and ore efficient) , ie bumpers, engines, frames, and panels. Whereas the D3 pretty much outsource most of the frames, panels, doors, bumpers, instrument panels to suppliers.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by RonJon

That vehicle is actually built by a company called CAMI automotive. It used to be a joint venture partnership between GM and Suzuki. However since the price gas rose a year ago, Suzuki stopped making the XL7 because they weren't selling. GM on the other kept on pumping out Equinoxes and Torrents and they sat in dealers lot by the THOUSANDS.

That maybe true, but the XL-7 is more Equinox then the other way around. The Theta platform is 100% GM designed. The 3.6 that is in the XL-7 is GM. Hell the design is VERY similar to the Equinox.

If you go to a Toyota dealership and you know what class/type of vehicle you want, you will only have ONE choice. If you go to a GM dealership, you'll see the same vehicle in different skins. This does not add an value to the consumer. What it does is piss people of by "rebranding" the same essential vehicle in 2 or sometimes 3 different brands and charge a premium for a basically a different label.

Toyota does its own rebadging. It is just they are much better at making one vehicle look different from the there stable mates. Camry= Lexus ES, Highlander= RX. But, then again there are blatant rebadges like the Sequioa and GX and the Land Cruiser and LX.

Back to your point, I've both of the new vehicles fully assembled and the Equinox does look nicer, it has really round shape, but the GMC version is really square and has a bold truck look. This design is actually radically different then the current Equinox /Torrent.

The Torrent is dead thankfully.

btw, you'd be shocked to know that the ENTIRE engine assembly comes fully assembled from CHINA!!! That’s right CHINA. For a comparison, Toyota and Honda have Engines plants in NA, with foundries and
all!!

Like I said with the Torrent, the 3.4 is dead( I know how horrid it is as my mom has a 2006 Equinox). Instead we have a 2.4 DI 4 banger and a 3.0 DI V6. Which should be American made as the Ecotec is assembled in Springhill, TN and the 3.6 is built in Flint, MI and St. Catherines, Ontario. So the 3.0 DI should be built at either or both plants( I am inclined to say MI since the 3.6 DI is built there).

I am not trying to apologize for GM's( and the other D2's) mistakes. I am just out to say their new products have really improved.

[RonJon]

Originally Posted by quagmire

That maybe true, but the XL-7 is more Equinox then the other way around. The Theta platform is 100% GM designed. The 3.6 that is in the XL-7 is GM. Hell the design is VERY similar to the Equinox.

The XL-7 is designed by GM, most of it Oshawa..

Toyota does its own rebadging. It is just they are much better at making one vehicle look different from the their stable mates. Camry= Lexus ES, Highlander= RX. But, then again their are blatant rebadges like the Sequioa and GX and the Land Cruiser and LX.

You are 100% correct, with one exeption, the Camery and ES dont compete with another. And just to correct something, the Highlander is not a RX. They dont share any of the interior or exterior design qeues... I mean in Oshawa car plant where they had two assembly lines, they used to make 5 different cars, all based on the same platform, and more then one of them had the same specs, looks, price, and target consumer. That is never the case with Toyota and Honda.

The Torrent is dead thankfully.

One down, 18 to go... lol

Like I said with the Torrent, the 3.4 is dead. Instead we have a 2.4 DI 4 banger and a 3.0 DI V6. Which should be American made the Ecotec is assembled in Springhill, TN and the 3.6 is built in Flint, MI and St. Catherines, Ontario. So the 3.0 DI should be built at either or both plants( I am inclined to say MI since the 3.6 DI is built there).

For the sake of GM, I hope they outsource the engine to Mexico as they've done with most of their large trucks and SUV. I dont support any work for the UAW and CAW since they dont want to talk about wage cuts and or recessions, or improving productivity.

I am not trying to apologize for GM's( and the other D2's) mistakes. I am just out to say their new products have really improved.

I do agree with you to an extent, more so then then Ford and Chrysler. Ford seems to believe that they have the right plan and maybe they'll get by, but Chrysler needs to go, by that I mean merge with GM.

I mean can you believe that a company like KIA and Hyundia can introduce a brand new product to a foreign market and out perform Ford and GM?!?! I am talking about minivans of course, both Ford and GM stopped making minivans last year cus they weren't selling, they got beat by a bunch of rookies, ie Toyota, Honda, KIA, and Hyundai. What a shame!!!

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by RonJon

The XL-7 is designed by GM, most of it Oshawa..

Designed and assembled are two different things.

You are 100% correct, with one exeption, the Camery and ES dont compete with another. And just to correct something, the Highlander is not a RX. They dont share any of the interior or exterior design qeues... I mean in Oshawa car plant where they had two assembly lines, they used to make 5 different cars, all based on the same platform, and more then one of them had the same specs, looks, price, and target consumer. That is never the case with Toyota and Honda.

You're 100% correct with one exception, the RX and Highlander do share platforms. Just like I said, Toyota does rebadging better then GM.

I do agree with you to an extent, more so then then Ford and Chrysler. Ford seems to believe that they have the right plan and maybe they'll get by, but Chrysler needs to go, by that I mean merge with GM.

Ford is just keeping things closer to the chest then GM is. Look where Ford is being smart: bringing over their Euro products. While GM is having a huge mess on what to do with their Euro products.