[chris719]

Originally Posted by visionaut

Michelin Pilot Alpins. Super grip in sub-freezing weather… dry, wet or ice. Made for cold weather performance.

I agree that Michelin PA4 is the best option in North America anyway for this case. The OP doesn't want a snow tire because they won't drive in snow, but it's possible to get caught in a little snow in VA. The TireRack numbers show it is very close to the all seasons in dry and actually performs better in wet. I ran them this winter on my M2C and have no regrets and they feel great.

[H2O_Doc]

Originally Posted by chris719

I agree that Michelin PA4 is the best option in North America anyway for this case. The OP doesn't want a snow tire because they won't drive in snow, but it's possible to get caught in a little snow in VA. The TireRack numbers show it is very close to the all seasons in dry and actually performs better in wet. I ran them this winter on my M2C and have no regrets and they feel great.

Hmmmmm. That's import info. Thanks much. And the YouTube posted earlier by another person was surprising. I really overestimated the potential need for all season tires for my particular driving circumstances.

[H2O_Doc]

Originally Posted by Onesie

OP, watch the Engineering Explained episode on summer tire on a cold dry day.

This was surprising and important info. Well, surprising to me, anyway.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

Although it's still warm, I've picked up an extra set of wheels as my M2 is a 4 season daily driver and I'll need an alternative to summer-only tires soon. But there's a catch.

Discussions of cold tolerant tires often turn to snow/wet traction capabilities and rightly so in most cases. My needs are a little different, however. What I need isn't a winter (snowflake) tire per se as I won't take the M2 out if there is any appreciable chance of snow. And probably similar for rain. What I really need is the tire that can grip dry pavement the best in low temperatures to below freezing (say as low as -10° C but with most days in around 0-5° C). Most of my daily driving never elevates the tire temperature much (short trips).

I've run Pilot All Season 4s and have been happy with them. The Continental DWS06 read like they are as good, maybe better. That said, reviews incorporate a variety of criteria that are less important to may particular interests (e.g. wet handling, light snow).

So, if anyone has an opinion on a best or better option for a cold weather dry pavement tire that grips well, please advise.

if you're not going to have snow the best cold tire is still a high performance summer tire.

where i live we're at -4 to 14 in winter and it occasionally snows

i have tried all kinds of tires - snow tires, All seasons, ultra high performance summer

the summer tire is best by far

even works fine on non compacted snow, non frozen snow

also once the snow is a few days old or water have frozen overnight - all seasons are useless

[whyzee125]

Conti DWS

[whyzee125]

Originally Posted by G80M4

if you're not going to have snow the best cold tire is still a high performance summer tire.

where i live we're at -4 to 14 in winter and it occasionally snows

i have tried all kinds of tires - snow tires, All seasons, ultra high performance summer

the summer tire is best by far

even works fine on non compacted snow, non frozen snow

also once the snow is a few days old or water have frozen overnight - all seasons are useless

I don't mean this in a sarcastic way at all, but what summer tires have you used?

I never have snow but virtually every set of summer tires I've tried turns to square blocks in the cold (Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 was the worst) and makes driving pretty miserable. I reluctantly went all season this time. I went with Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ which has an astronomical amount of grip for an all season but is LOUD. Wish I'd gone with the trusty DWS.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by G80M4

if you're not going to have snow the best cold tire is still a high performance summer tire.

where i live we're at -4 to 14 in winter and it occasionally snows

i have tried all kinds of tires - snow tires, All seasons, ultra high performance summer

the summer tire is best by far

even works fine on non compacted snow, non frozen snow

also once the snow is a few days old or water have frozen overnight - all seasons are useless

This is completely and utterly untrue. I have tried 3 sets at different times in the winter and they are horrific. There are even tests on YT showing it. Your winter climate is still pretty mild. I would not be giving this info out to people that live in less predictable and lower temperature climates.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by chris719

This is completely and utterly untrue. I have tried 3 sets at different times in the winter and they are horrific. There are even tests on YT showing it. Your winter climate is still pretty mild. I would not be giving this info out to people that live in less predictable and lower temperature climates.

My bad.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by whyzee125

I don't mean this in a sarcastic way at all, but what summer tires have you used?

I never have snow but virtually every set of summer tires I've tried turns to square blocks in the cold (Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 was the worst) and makes driving pretty miserable. I reluctantly went all season this time. I went with Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ which has an astronomical amount of grip for an all season but is LOUD. Wish I'd gone with the trusty DWS.

Pilot sport 4 but narrower ones. The wider ones are very slippery when not dry. Eg 225 45 18 felt like driving on rails while 245 40 18 feels like driving a rally car when it's not dry.

I forgot to mention something very important my apologies.

I drive a full time 4wd Subaru legacy wagon in winter...

[540iSUP]

I live in California so I don't see snow unless I willingly drive up a mountain. I currently run Continental DWS06 tires and I love them. I feel very planted when it does rain in the winter and I'm driving a RWD. I don't think they grip as much in the summer as PS4s, but for an all around tire that doesn't see any snow and sometimes heavy rain, they're great. I don't get temps lower than 30*F in the winter though.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by G80M4

My bad.

Come on. It's not even cold, he's in a t-shirt. I've experienced it firsthand and swapped tires on the same day, and there are numerous other references that I am not inclined to hunt down for you beyond this one:

There are other German tire tests that show the same.

Once the tire is below Tg it gets dangerous. What that temperature is exactly for every specific tire is not known, so it is a dumb idea to suggest to anyone that it's safe to run summer tires in the winter when you get disclaimers like this added to even PS4S:

Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by G80M4

Pilot sport 4 but narrower ones. The wider ones are very slippery when not dry. Eg 225 45 18 felt like driving on rails while 245 40 18 feels like driving a rally car when it's not dry.

I forgot to mention something very important my apologies.

I drive a full time 4wd Subaru legacy wagon in winter...

Pilot Sport 4 are not even the same performance category of tire that we are discussing generally or come on the M2. The 4S is.

[H2O_Doc]

What prompted my post was really the driving I do during the winter that is from around 25°F - 45°F, but on dry pavement. These are the sorts of days I've found unpleasant driving in summer tires. There are enough of these days that I'd like to be able to use my M2 and enjoy it a bit. Ive had a several cars with summer only tires and have experienced the loss of grip that occurs on cold days first hand numerous times. I've also driven through it long enough to get some heat into the tires and restore much of the performance, but my current circumstances are now that many of my trips are short enough that I'd never warm up the tires much. That's what prompted the question. I ran PS All Season 4s on my M240i, but that's a different beast so comparisons could be difficult to make. I do have a neighbor who has also runs that tire in his M8 and he's happy with them.

So, winter tires that are snow oriented are not my particular interest, but circum-freezing capable tires are.

Many thanks to all those that have chimed in so far.

[visionaut]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

Hmmmmm. That's import info. Thanks much. And the YouTube posted earlier by another person was surprising. I really overestimated the potential need for all season tires for my particular driving circumstances.

I hate all-seasons, always have - there’s just too much compromise to their performance. I don’t care to run a single tire year-round, I want tires optimized for each case. I like the most traction/grip when it’s both hot and cold out - the mountain backroads call to me year round. So for me it’s Michelin PS4Ss (255/35-19s) for summer, and the Michelin PA4s (245/40-18s) for winter… yeah, Michelin compounds keep me grinning year-round.

[H2O_Doc]

Originally Posted by visionaut

I hate all-seasons, always have - there’s just too much compromise to their performance. I don’t care to run a single tire year-round, I want tires optimized for each case. I like the most traction/grip when it’s both hot and cold out - the mountain backroads call to me year round. So for me it’s Michelin PS4Ss (255/35-19s) for summer, and the Michelin PA4s (245/40-18s) for winter… yeah, Michelin compounds keep me grinning year-round.

Yep. Bought an extra set of wheels to run different tires for warmer and cooler weather.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

Although it's still warm, I've picked up an extra set of wheels as my M2 is a 4 season daily driver and I'll need an alternative to summer-only tires soon. But there's a catch.

Discussions of cold tolerant tires often turn to snow/wet traction capabilities and rightly so in most cases. My needs are a little different, however. What I need isn't a winter (snowflake) tire per se as I won't take the M2 out if there is any appreciable chance of snow. And probably similar for rain. What I really need is the tire that can grip dry pavement the best in low temperatures to below freezing (say as low as -10° C but with most days in around 0-5° C). Most of my daily driving never elevates the tire temperature much (short trips).

I've run Pilot All Season 4s and have been happy with them. The Continental DWS06 read like they are as good, maybe better. That said, reviews incorporate a variety of criteria that are less important to may particular interests (e.g. wet handling, light snow).

So, if anyone has an opinion on a best or better option for a cold weather dry pavement tire that grips well, please advise.

Doc, you and I have basically the same type of need. I don't drive my high-performance fun car(s) in the ice or snow during the winter, so we want the best high-performance winter tires...ones that can also perform safely in cold rain as well, if necessary.

Over the last 30 years, I have owned multiple high-performance RWD cars (a 1990 300ZX Turbo, a 1985 Mazda RX7, a heavily-modified Lexus GS430, a 2015 BMW M4...and currently I own a 2013 M3 and a 2021 BMW M4, and they are the only 2 cars I own right now). And, in Maryland, I have run ultra or max high-performance summer tires all year round, driving all of these cars straight through many a cold winter day (down to 0 degrees Fahrenheit, which is like -10 degrees C). Never had a problem, in the dry or rain. Early on, I was a Goodyear and Continental fan, and over the last 15 years, I've been a Michelin fan.

And once the tires warmed up, I would at times drive rather spiritedly, and never had an issue. Certainly, I didn't drive as aggressively when the temperatures dropped below like 15 degrees F, but I wasn't overly cautious either once the tires warmed up. In cold rain, I would be extra careful and would drive the speed limit, but honestly, I'm extra careful in summer rain too...for fear of other drivers' abilities or lack thereof. Thus, I have no need for tires that handle amazingly in the wet, as long as they perform well enough to avoid hydroplaning. When it rains, I just drive with the flow of traffic or even near the speed limit (egads!), leaving lots of space.

If it snowed or if there was ice on the road, I had other cars I would use. But currently, I don't even own "other" appliances for bad weather. I own 2 RWD M cars, both with PS4S tires, and I've made it through these past winters just fine. I figure if it snows, I'll just stay home (I mean, do we really HAVE to go out every day??? ), or I could use Uber/Lyft, or I could rent an "appliance" before or even during a storm if I do need to get around for a few days or even a week while the roads clear. I decided it was a waste of money for me to own a car for "just in case" bad weather with the advent of ride-sharing apps and Turo.

Now, if I lived in a much colder climate, where you could spend weeks at O degrees F and below during the winter, I still wouldn't change out my sports car's tires. I'd just have another car like a Subaru or an SUV to drive during those long stretches of extreme cold, or through feet of snow. And then when the weather warmed up a bit, and the roads cleared, I'd pull my sports car back out on its summer tires and drive during the winter. But in those colder climates, fall and winter last much longer, and the snow storms are more extreme, so another car on winter tires makes much more sense....if for no other reason than to protect your sports car from other driver's navigating slippery conditions.

Way back in the 90's, I put All-Season tires on my Z for its first winter based on advice, and I didn't like the way they handled at all. They sapped all the fun out of even driving my sports car. I felt like it was "wasted miles". So the next winter, I never took off my summer tires and drove my manual Z through the winter, and my Z drove better in cold, dry temperatures than the All Seasons did, and well enough in the wet (with the way I drive in the rain). So, from that point on, I have never switched out my high-performance summer tires for the winter in any performance car I owned. (BTW, that Z that I bought with 30,000 miles lasted until it had 378,000 miles, with the original turbos! Finally, the engine died. And I sold it to another Z enthusiast, who replaced the engine and kept driving it. So many smiles per mile in that car )

I digress....the answer may be that the best set of tires that grip well during the winter on cold days is your high-performance summer tires already on the car. My high-performance summer tires never felt "squirrely", they didn't have increased wear, and when the weather warmed up, the tires went right back to performing like high-performance summer tires with no loss of durability or traction.

But this is just one enthusiast's opinion...and enthusiast who has never owned a garage queen, and drives their cars all year round (and I take long trips in the winter too, in my performance cars).

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Doc, you and I have basically the same need. I won't drive my high-performance fun car in the ice or snow during the winter, so we want the best high-performance winter tires...ones that can also perform safely in cold rain as well, if necessary.

Over the last 30 years, I have owned multiple high-performance RWD cars (a 1990 300ZX Turbo, a 1985 Mazda RX7, a heavily-modified Lexus GS430, a 2015 BMW M4...and currently I own a 2013 M3 and a 2021 BMW M4, and they are the only 2 cars I own right now). And, in Maryland, I have run ultra or max high-performance summer tires all year round, driving all of these cars straight through many a cold winter day (down to 0 degrees Fahrenheit, which is like -10 degrees C). Never had a problem, in the dry or rain. Early on, I was a Goodyear and Continental fan, and over the last 15 years, I've been a Michelin fan.

And once the tires warmed up, I would at times drive rather spiritedly, and never had an issue. Certainly, I didn't drive as aggressively when the temperatures dropped below like 15 degrees F, but I wasn't overly cautious either once the tires warmed up. In cold rain, I would be extra careful and would drive the speed limit, but honesty, I'm extra careful in warm rain too...for fear of other drivers' abilities or lack thereof. Thus, I have no need for tires that handle amazingly in the wet, as long as they perform well enough to avoid hydroplaning. When it rains, I just drive with the flow of traffic or even near the speed limit (egads!), leaving lots of space (again, worried about others).

If it snowed or if there was ice on the road, I had other cars I would use. But currently, I don't even own "other" appliances for bad weather. I own 2 RWD M cars, both with PS4S tires, and I've made it through these past winters just fine. I figure if it snows, I'll just stay home (I mean, do we really HAVE to go out every day??? ), or I could use Uber/Lyft, or I could rent an "appliance" before or even during a storm if I do need to get around for a few days or even a week while the roads clear.

Now, if I lived in a much colder climate, where you could spend weeks at O degrees F and below during the winter, I still wouldn't change out my sports car's tires. I'd just have another car like a Subaru or an SUV to drive during those long stretches of extreme cold, or through feet of snow. And then when the weather warmed up a bit, and the roads cleared, I'd pull my sports car back out on its summer tires and drive during the winter.

Way back in the 90's, I put All-Season tires on my Z for its first winter based on advice, and I didn't like the way they handled at all. They sapped all the fun out of even driving my sports car. I felt like it was "wasted miles". So the next winter, I never took off my summer tires and drove my manual Z through the winter, and my Z drove better in cold, dry temperatures, and well enough in the wet (with the way I drive in the rain). So, from that point on, I have never switched out my high-performance summer tires for the winter in any performance car I owned. (BTW, that Z that I bought with 30,000 miles lasted until it had 378,000 miles, with the original turbos! Finally, the engine died. And I sold it to another Z enthusiast, who replaced the engine and kept driving it. So many smiles per mile in that car )

I digress....the answer may be that the best set of tires that grip well during the winter on cold days is your high-performance summer tires already on the car. My high-performance summer tires never felt "squirrely", they didn't have increased wear, and when the weather warmed up, the tires went right back to performing like high-performance summer tires with no loss of durability or traction.

But this is just one man's opinion...

Wanting the best high performance winter tires and using max performance summer tires in the winter is an oxymoron.

[RM7]

I left my high performance General AS tires on for the first snow of the year last year, just to see. Holy crap, that was a no-go real fast. Put my studded tires/wheels on the next day. Our pavement remains cold, especially at night. Often times in AK, we'll get rain in the winter, but it freezes on the ground due to the ground staying cold (low sun, permafrost, etc.). Freezing rain is a thing, although if we are lucky we don't get slammed by it too much. Frost deposited on the road is definitely a thing, that's black-ice and it's not common in most places, but due to the low temp, high pressure (sea level), shade, humidity, it tends to be. The studded tires outperform easily in our conditions, snow turns to ice over time, it doesn't evaporate until late Feb when the sun starts to hit stuff significantly again. Just getting moving can be quite a thing unless the car is AWD...and then there's braking. It's funny, in most of the comparos between studded and non, they are driving on snow, not ice, so obviously there isn't much diff, but stopping on ice, starting on ice, turning on ice, no comparison.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by H2O_Doc

What prompted my post was really the driving I do during the winter that is from around 25°F - 45°F, but on dry pavement. These are the sorts of days I've found unpleasant driving in summer tires. There are enough of these days that I'd like to be able to use my M2 and enjoy it a bit. Ive had a several cars with summer only tires and have experienced the loss of grip that occurs on cold days first hand numerous times. I've also driven through it long enough to get some heat into the tires and restore much of the performance, but my current circumstances are now that many of my trips are short enough that I'd never warm up the tires much. That's what prompted the question. I ran PS All Season 4s on my M240i, but that's a different beast so comparisons could be difficult to make. I do have a neighbor who has also runs that tire in his M8 and he's happy with them.

So, winter tires that are snow oriented are not my particular interest, but circum-freezing capable tires are.

Many thanks to all those that have chimed in so far.

it's not just the tires, it's also contact patch area and tyre sidewall flexibility. you want narrow contact patch to cut through the crud and make contact with the stuff at the bottom with more grip and tonnes of sidewall deformity so the tire can conform to the terrain. (plus the tread of course, the winter tire with the floppy sipes)

generally you don't want 255 30 20 tyres for example, you want smaller rim size (and taller sidewall), and narrower than what you like for summer spirited driving

if your brakes will allow 18" use 225 45 18, wheel width 7.5"-8", not 8.5"

as mentioned i drive up ski fields in my subaru (full time 100% 4wd) on just about any summer tire (had chinese, japanese tires before too). last 2 seasons been getting up ski fields on 225 45 18 Pilot Sport 4.

this season i put on 245 40 18 on the subaru and it was very very twitchy, never had traction control light come on last 10 seasons but this year the traction control light was coming on a lot! think of narrow skis cut into the snow and fat skis float on the snow

just mounted 235 47 17 (PS4) today and will be going skiing this weekend (southern hemisphere) ... let's see if it's as good as the 245 45 18s.

no i would not use a semi track tire in winter (PS4S) that's not a good idea.

but if you were to have any ice or snow that's more than 1 day old i would not touch summer tires, that's suicide. i won't even mount all seasons in a 4WD in those conditions. the new ones called all weather is ok for these situations. slow but it will give enough traction.

what's your normal tire size?

[KevinC]

Fun fact: The PS4AS is the standard tire on the C8 Corvette.

[KevinGS]

Originally Posted by alex2364

Wanting the best high performance winter tires and using max performance summer tires in the winter is an oxymoron.

If your performance car must navigate snow and ice, I agree.

But if your performance car will only need to navigate cold temperatures or a cold rain, I don't think it's an oxymoron at all, because I've been doing it for many years, on various RWD performance cars. Never had a problem.

Hec, Doc doesn't even plan on driving his M2 in a cold rain much, merely navigating cold, dry pavement. Thus, my recommendation to Doc is to not switch out his summer tires initially, and let winter come and see if his summer tires feel "unsafe" in the colder temps. If they do, then he can always order A/S or winter performance tires later.

For me, I'd always let my summer tires get warmed up a bit after a cold night or in really cold temperatures (below freezing), and then I'd drive my performance car quite normally. And the tires gripped almost like it was summer. My recent experience over the last 10 years or so has been with Michelins Pilot Super Sports (now the PS4S), and they've been great. Never take them off the car, in any weather. But of course, if there's snow or ice, my performance cars are never driven. Though, even if I had winter tires, I still wouldn't want to risk driving my fun, performance car in the snow or ice, not among the other drivers out there navigating those same slippery conditions.

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

If your performance car must navigate snow and ice, I agree.

But if your performance car will only need to navigate cold temperatures or a cold rain, I don't think it's an oxymoron at all, because I've been doing it for many years, on various RWD performance cars. Never had a problem.

Hec, Doc doesn't even plan on driving his M2 in a cold rain much, merely navigating cold, dry pavement. Thus, my recommendation to Doc is to not switch out his summer tires initially, and let winter come and see if his summer tires feel "unsafe" in the colder temps. If they do, then he can always order A/S or winter performance tires later.

For me, I'd always let my summer tires get warmed up a bit after a cold night or in really cold temperatures (below freezing), and then I'd drive my performance car quite normally. And the tires gripped almost like it was summer. My recent experience over the last 10 years or so has been with Michelins Pilot Super Sports (now the PS4S), and they've been great. Never take them off the car, in any weather. But of course, if there's snow or ice, my performance cars are never driven. Though, even if I had winter tires, I still wouldn't want to risk driving my fun, performance car in the snow or ice, not among the other drivers out there navigating those same slippery conditions.

Never having a problem doesn’t mean it’s the best high performance tire in the cold. Even Michelin warns against using PS4S in cold temperatures.

Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced.