[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by ddk632

Also the sub-3000 lbs rules would exclude most of today's cars, period. Including the Aventador.

The retractable top or no top also excludes a lot of sports cars.

My definition is a sports car is a car built with spirited driving in mind, one that would feel at home in canyons and on a racetrack.

My definition does not limit it by number of doors, weight, power, size, type of transmission, or any other such factor.

To me, cars like the BMW M5, Porsche Panamera GTS, and BMW i8, are just as much sports cars as the Lotus Elise, Chevy Corvette, Mazda Miata, Honda S2000, Acura (Honda) NSX, and Nissan GT-R; yes, they are not all created equal, but they are sports cars to me.

That's why we have more terms to use. It doesn't have to come down to "is it a sportscar or not."

The M5 could very well be classified as a sport sedan (essentially a luxury sport sedan). You mentioned some hatchbacks earlier, and the term "hot hatch" is essentially concrete at this point. Take a car like the SL500. It looks like a sportscar and has a strong set of performance attributes, but is heavy and far more suited to long distance trips or boulevard cruising; it's common to refer to cars like that as Grand Tourers, or GTs.

The sports car term doesn't have to be watered down. We just need to understand that there are better terms out there that shit the different types of cars available today.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by TonyP83

I know most of us consider something fast and fun a sports car but what is YOUR definition?

That right there is the key I think a lot of people are missing. A FWD rally car may very well qualify as a sports car, now if I said I was going to go buy a sports car, a FWD rally car would be no where on my list.

[Litos]

SRT4 Neon and the MazdaSpeed3 are sports cars.....

[E39lolz]

Originally Posted by ddk632

A funny thing about Corollas and South Florida.

When I first moved here, realtor told me, "Never mess with Corollas. They are driven by old rich people and they will just ram right in to you, and then have their butler bring them another Corolla."

True story.

I don't mess with Corollas. Ever.

I assume Miami? I've been here for a year and just about everyone cannot drive for the love of God. Hardly anyone is courteous, no blinkers and the Cubans here will scald you If you don't speak Spanish. And before anyone says anything, I am 100% Latino with Cuban in me .

[F1Venom]

IMO a sports car is a car with quick acceleration and solid brakes and handling. That's all.

[MrPrena]

I consider Miata as a Sports car. I consider even Mazda 3 as a sports car.

I DO NOT consider Ferrari Enzo or Lamborghini Avantador, or even Bugatti Vyron a Racecar.

I do not like when people get confused with racecar with sportscar.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by MrPrena

I consider Miata as a Sports car. I consider even Mazda 3 as a sports car.

I DO NOT consider Ferrari Enzo or Lamborghini Avantador, or even Bugatti Vyron a Racecar.

I do not like when people get confused with racecar with sportscar.

A race car is a car modified specifically for racing, so while almost no cars are race cars, pretty much any car can be a race car. Actually I think that's a much easier thing to define and agree with than sports car.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by E39lolz

I assume Miami? I've been here for a year and just about everyone cannot drive for the love of God. Hardly anyone is courteous, no blinkers and the Cubans here will scald you If you don't speak Spanish. And before anyone says anything, I am 100% Latino with Cuban in me .

Close, but actually it was Boca Raton... The old people in Boca are famous for driving into cafés and stuff. Every time I drive through Boca, I am on "old people alert."

My first week living there I witnessed a "police chase" ... Oblivious old lady was driving, clearly not trying to run from cops but had no idea they were following her ... Ran a red light and got into an accident. Literally right in front of me at my intersection. I was on my bike and ready for evasive action!

It was surreal, yet kind of funny at the same time. She might have even been driving a Corolla, or at least something very similar to one.

People in LA are known for being bad drivers, but having lived in both areas, South Florida is the clear winner. At least in LA when people drive like a jackass, most of the time it's intentional. I can live with intentional, but it's hard to forgive oblivious. Those are the scary ones to watch out for.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by Year's_End

That's why we have more terms to use. It doesn't have to come down to "is it a sportscar or not."

The sports car term doesn't have to be watered down. We just need to understand that there are better terms out there that shit the different types of cars available today.

I guess it depends on how one thinks of the term sports car. What I am seeing in this thread is that for some of us it is a broad term, while for others it is more specific.

Since a sedan is a type of car, it makes sense that a sport sedan is a type of sports car. I would argue that a supercar or hypercar would be a subset of sports cars. Maybe the term is too broad due to the many choices of cars out there today and no longer useful as it once was.

It's the same thing with motorcycles. In the 70s there were no sport bikes. The Japanese bikes of the era are referred to as UJM, Universal Japanese Motorcycle. But the were GP races, etc. As technology progressed, bikes started to branch out and you had tourers, cruisers, nakeds, sportbikes, superbikes, etc.

Cars have gone in a similar direction. Many more "raw" and "visceral" cars of yesteryear have become easier to live with and daily drive, more luxury and more convenient; at the same time, many more luxury, larger, heavier cars have become more nimble and better at handling and other performance aspects. Some of the lines have blurred.

Even some GT cars can be said to be sports cars. Think SLS AMG - it's a GT car, but AMG races them, so they definitely qualify as sports cars. This is where it gets even more subjective, though; for example, I don't think of a Bentley Continental GT as a sports car, but they race them as well so that goes to show my own thoughts on the subject are not entirely concise.

I do agree though that the SL is not a sports car. Never thought of it as one. It's a GT for sure. There is lots of overlap these days of the different types of cars especially when you think of fast, powerful, 2 door variety high end cars.

Interestingly enough, for me, if you were to ask me what is the first image that pops into my head when someone says sports car, I think of the Corvette. That's the first thing that came up when I read the thread title yesterday.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by John 070

The
easiest way to identify a sports car is if it has an S designation on the trunk. A corolla is never a sports car, a Corolla S is always a sports car

In that case the 911 is't but the 911 S is and the 911 Turbo isn't but the 911 Turbo S is..........


I don't think the M5 is a sports car but it's a damn fast luxury sedan that can corner really well for it's size. It's called a saloon racer.

I would consider any 911 variant a sports car and then I think the Cayman and Boxster could be included. Panamera no, Cayenne no. M3 could be considered a sports car but it really has too many seats. M6 might be a sports car too. Z series are certainly sports cars with Z8 probably the sportiest.

TR3, TR4 and TR6 were all sports cars.

Originally Posted by ddk632

Interestingly enough, for me, if you were to ask me what is the first image that pops into my head when someone says sports car, I think of the Corvette. That's the first thing that came up when I read the thread title yesterday.

Who dat? Note the sport bike in the back ground out by the basketball hoop, Yamaha RD350 would do a wheelie in the first five gears, definitely a sports bike, destroyed any CB 350 or 450 that ever dared to race me.

[gtron]

Originally Posted by E39lolz

When I said that IMHO FWD cars aren't true sports cars, it only meant towards front wheel drive cars. Thus, I never mentioned that AWD cars aren't sports cars

not sure why i read that completely wrong. my fault.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

In that case the 911 is't but the 911 S is and the 911 Turbo isn't but the 911 Turbo S is..........


I don't think the M5 is a sports car but it's a damn fast luxury sedan that can corner really well for it's size. It's called a saloon racer.

I would consider any 911 variant a sports car and then I think the Cayman and Boxster could be included. Panamera no, Cayenne no. M3 could be considered a sports car but it really has too many seats. M6 might be a sports car too. Z series are certainly sports cars with Z8 probably the sportiest.

TR3, TR4 and TR6 were all sports cars.



Who dat? Note the sport bike in the back ground out by the basketball hoop, Yamaha RD350 would do a wheelie in the first five gears, definitely a sports bike, destroyed any CB 350 or 450 that ever dared to race me.

The 911 Turbo S is actually not a sports car as it does not come in a manual. Yes, it's faster on a track with the auto, but it' snot a sports car as a result.

True M5 is not a sports car, Alpina B7 not a sports car, M3 is a sports car as long as it has a clutch.

[Sedan_Clan]

This is getting good!

[ddk632]

Lamborghini Aventador - no manual
Pagani Huayra - no manual
Nissan GT-R - no manual
(Surely there are others but these come to mind at first)

These are not sports cars?

I love manuals as much as the next guy - one of my all time dream cars I hope to pick up in the not too distant future only comes in 5 speed manual (E36/8 M Coupe) - but I think in today's day and age with dual clutch boxes, it will rule out way too many contenders which truly are sports cars in every other sense of the definition.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by John 070

The 911 Turbo S is actually not a sports car as it does not come in a manual. Yes, it's faster on a track with the auto, but it' snot a sports car as a result.

True M5 is not a sports car, Alpina B7 not a sports car, M3 is a sports car as long as it has a clutch.

A DCT or PDK is better than a manual. I do think that you could definitely say manual is a requirement for sports car but today's technology means the clutch pedal isn't required. The DCT is a great transmission and it's as manual as a 6mt from the driver point of view but less hassle.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

A DCT or PDK is better than a manual. I do think that you could definitely say manual is a requirement for sports car but today's technology means the clutch pedal isn't required. The DCT is a great transmission and it's as manual as a 6mt from the driver point of view but less hassle.

That depends on how we define "better". To some they are worse. Some favor slightly faster/consistent shift times. Others favor a more tactile, involved and rewarding driver experience. Which is "better" differs greatly depending on which attributes you value more.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That depends on how we define "better". To some they are worse. Some favor slightly faster/consistent shift times. Others favor a more tactile, involved and rewarding driver experience. Which is "better" differs greatly depending on which attributes you value more.

The DCT is the fastest shift out there. The PDK has a bit of a lag based on my test drives of a Macan Turbo with the latest PDK. The DCT in my M5 is better and it's way better than the SMT in the E60 M5.

However, it does appear that the old MT will be phased out in favor of DCT or PDK or the equivalent. Manufacturers have quit offering the option of MT for a reason so if it's a requirement for a sports car, then not too long from now, there won't be any new sports cars produced.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

The DCT is the fastest shift out there. The PDK has a bit of a lag based on my test drives of a Macan Turbo with the latest PDK. The DCT in my M5 is better and it's way better than the SMT in the E60 M5.

However, it does appear that the old MT will be phased out in favor of DCT or PDK or the equivalent. Manufacturers have quit offering the option of MT for a reason so if it's a requirement for a sports car, then not too long from now, there won't be any new sports cars produced.

That doesn't change anything that I've said. While you'll be hard pressed to find someone who will claim that DCT isn't faster than an MT, the connection is what MT purists seek. I don't think BMW will stop offering MT's anytime soon. I was disappointed in Porsche for doing that though, especially on their premium performance GT cars.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

That doesn't change anything that I've said. While you'll be hard pressed to find someone who will claim that DCT isn't faster than an MT, the connection is what MT purists seek. I don't think BMW will stop offering MT's anytime soon. I was disappointed in Porsche for doing that though, especially on their premium performance GT cars.

As I understand it, MT isn't an option on the European M5, only on the US models. It seems to me that the MT's sit the longest and are the hardest to resell. After driving the DCT, I didn't even need to test the MT to know what I liked best and I drove four on the floor for years in a lot of different cars, sports and not sporty. You could also say that Amish are purists from the point of view of technology, right? LOL!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

As I understand it, MT isn't an option on the European M5, only on the US models. It seems to me that the MT's sit the longest and are the hardest to resell. After driving the DCT, I didn't even need to test the MT to know what I liked best and I drove four on the floor for years in a lot of different cars, sports and not sporty. You could also say that Amish are purists from the point of view of technology, right? LOL!

The ///M5 example is exactly my point. BMW creates MT cars specifically for the US market, so I doubt that it's going anywhere where North America is concerned.

P.S. The Amish was a horrible analogy.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The ///M5 example is exactly my point. BMW creates MT cars specifically for the US market, so I doubt that it's going anywhere where North America is concerned.

I don't see many MT M5's either, like I said, they don't sell very quickly.

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

P.S. The Amish was a horrible analogy.

Yeah, I was debating between that one and vinyl vs. digital. The fact is, digital beats the hell out of vinyl in every way because the current technology for sampling and AD/DA conversion is leaps and bounds better than in the mid 80s when CDs first came out. Back then you could argue the technical merits because the original systems were 14bit or about 80db but today, it's not even an argument, you have systems with 120db SNR and negligible THD at very high output levels. Same thing is going on with DCT vs MT. Computers are faster and better at managing the power than a person is so while "purists" may view the MT as desirable, in fact, it's really an anchor on the rest of the package from a performance standpoint.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

I don't see many MT M5's either, like I said, they don't sell very quickly.

Yeah, I was debating between that one and vinyl vs. digital. The fact is, digital beats the hell out of vinyl in every way because the current technology for sampling and AD/DA conversion is leaps and bounds better than in the mid 80s when CDs first came out. Back then you could argue the technical merits because the original systems were 14bit or about 80db but today, it's not even an argument, you have systems with 120db SNR and negligible THD at very high output levels. Same thing is going on with DCT vs MT. Computers are faster and better at managing the power than a person is so while "purists" may view the MT as desirable, in fact, it's really an anchor on the rest of the package from a performance standpoint.

There aren't that many MT ///M5's, but the demand was, and continues to be, strong enough to warrant it. Where the ///M3 and ///M4 are concerned, an MT will likely always be an option here. North America is a really big market for BMW ///M. You liken an MT to an anchor. Lovers of the MT consider it an enhancement. Thank God BMW continues to provide a choice. Automatics and auto-manuals are as boring as watching somebody else have sex for me. Somebody in the F8X forum once provided an analogy regarding an MT being like a drummer's drumsticks. It was beautifully stated and spot on.


As for vinyl versus digital.....


....purists still prefer vinyl, which is why vinyl is STILL produced today, and can be found in all of the niche record stores here. It's not going anywhere.