[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Neusser

The Taycan has 1034 horsepower, which it can use effectively on the long straits. The 'Ring is not Hockenheim.

We are talking about handling here. What do you think an M5 CS with 1034 horsepower would do to a 5,000 lbs Taycan in the same scenario?

Let us stick to the laws of physics, laws that can be clearly observed in the slow speed for the G60 in the above test, compared with the G30.

Replace the G30 with something lighter and lower to the ground and get ready for even more laughs.

First of all, you don't even know how long a 1000HP M5 will last on the Nurburgring. Same weight, same HP cars, the EV would have the superior powerband.
Of course its give and take. The EV weighs more which hurts its handling, but can still do decent due to its powerband. But do you live on a track? (Where the EV can still turn decent times.) If not, the EV can excel in every day usage with an incredible power band, instant response, luxurious experience, quick acceleration, and about 300% more efficiency.

Lighter and lower to the ground for more laughs? I guess the same can be said of the VW I.D.R racer. It pretty much made all those big ICE cars it was competing against look silly. At the Nurburgring, Pikes Peak, etc. I mean really, all the self-proclaimed track stars on here should just race a go cart. It will handle better than your car, be more fun, and will be less expensive when you wreck it and find out your car insurance excludes track events.

Again, take a look at the Goodwood festival for speed and see what a lightweight EV can do to the gas car competition. Yeah, I know, probably not good enough for those that want to enter their cars in the Indy 500.. but this is with today's battery tech. Soon as light weight batteries come out, there won't be any competition.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

I said a Chevy Spark could "Possibly" beat an exotic. Quite frankly I don't know if they ever tested a Spark, or which exotics were tested. But when you see one of the best results were from a Camry-looking Citroen, its pretty clear that plenty of exotics can be beat by non-exotics.

I stand corrected. That's insane - so this test matters nothing to me now. From wikipedia:

Current champion. The Citroën Xantia Activa V6 has held the record since 1999, beating cars such as the track-orientated 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS and the 2017 McLaren 675LT. The Citroën performed the test at 85 km/h (53 mph).

[Trevor G]

Active anti-roll is available on the i5. Not sure what version but I was going to option it on my i5 M60 but felt it was not a needed extra expense.

[Tallest]

Originally Posted by M3N4CE

Definitely beyond that car's comfort zone or intended use/capabilities

Yeah, it looks that car is trying very hard to control its weight around those cones. Moose should be afraid to just step in front of one. This thing weighs x3 what moose weighs.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Same weight, same HP cars, the EV would have the superior powerband.

The M5 and Taycan are not the same weight in my example, nor would they ever be, because an M5 CS would not weigh 5,000 lbs.



The G60 in this test is a fat pig. The Taycan is a pig with a shit ton of horsepower.


I would love to see a tuned M5 CS of similar horsepower do a run around the 'Ring. I have little doubt about what the result would be.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Neusser

The M5 and Taycan are not the same weight in my example, nor would they ever be, because an M5 CS would not weigh 5,000 lbs.



The G60 in this test is a fat pig. The Taycan is a pig with a shit ton of horsepower.


I would love to see a tuned M5 CS of similar horsepower do a run around the 'Ring. I have little doubt about what the result would be.

That is not necessarily true. A Plaid weighs somewhere between the M5 and the Taycan in weight, boasts a flat 1000+HP power band, and still gets beaten badly on the Nurburgring by the 400-500lb heavier Taycan. And yes, that same Plaid, also beats the M5 CS. So there is absolutely no guarantee a M5 CS with 1000HP would somehow be 22 seconds faster on the Nurburgring.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

That is not necessarily true. A Plaid weighs somewhere between the M5 and the Taycan in weight, boasts a flat 1000+HP power band, and still gets beaten badly on the Nurburgring by the 400-500lb heavier Taycan. And yes, that same Plaid, also beats the M5 CS. So there is absolutely no guarantee a M5 CS with 1000HP would somehow be 22 seconds faster on the Nurburgring.

A Plaid weighs 2,265 kg or 4,993 lbs. The Taycan is 2370 kg or 5224 lbs.

The Taycan has a bit more power and likely a more track-focused setup being a Porsche.

An M5 CS is track-focused and weighs 1,900 kg or 4,188 lbs.

The M5 CS is about 800 to 1000 lbs lighter. Yes, 800 to 1000 lighter.

It has roughly 600 hp. Give it one fucking thousand thirty four horsepower and we know exactly what will happen.

Why you are even arguing this is beyond me. It's just embarassing at this point.

[Blue Angel]

Heavier cars shred tires much faster. EVs won’t be suitable for sustained lapping without some darn durable footwear. It’s my understanding that tires and batteries are pretty much cooked after one N-Ring lap.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by Neusser

A Plaid weighs 2,265 kg or 4,993 lbs. The Taycan is 2370 kg or 5224 lbs.

The Taycan has a bit more power and likely a more track-focused setup being a Porsche.

An M5 CS is track-focused and weighs 1,900 kg or 4,188 lbs.

The M5 CS is about 800 to 1000 lbs lighter. Yes, 800 to 1000 lighter.

It has roughly 600 hp. Give it one fucking thousand thirty four horsepower and we know exactly what will happen.

Why you are even arguing this is beyond me. It's just embarassing at this point.

The next M5 will have the weight but not the power… let’s see how it goes!

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

Heavier cars shred tires much faster. EVs won’t be suitable for sustained lapping without some darn durable footwear. It’s my understanding that tires and batteries are pretty much cooked after one N-Ring lap.

Yes, but this is all meaningless. None of the cars we are discussing are track cars, with the EVs being the least suitable.

It is impressive that Porsche can make an EV that turns in a nice time on a track, but no one ever went to the track and said "Gee, I sure wish this thing weighed 3,000 lbs more."





Weight is the enemy of sport. My G31 handles very well, and I love it for what it is, but I would never argue that can take an M240i on the 'Ring or any track whatsoever. That is basically what this discussion has devolved to.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Neusser

Yes, but this is all meaningless. None of the cars we are discussing are track cars, with the EVs being the least suitable.

It is impressive that Porsche can make an EV that turns in a nice time on a track, but no one ever went to the track and said "Gee, I sure wish this thing weighed 3,000 lbs more."





Weight is the enemy of sport. My G31 handles very well, and I love it for what it is, but I would never argue that can take an M240i on the 'Ring or any track whatsoever. That is basically what this discussion has devolved to.

First of all, there is no guarantee the M5CS with 600 HP more is going to be 20 seconds faster on the Nurburgring. And even if it were as quick, in real-life driving, it is not going to have the effortless torque of an EV or average 80mpg. You don't seem to get it. My i4M50 is much more sure footed in the rain than your 540ix. Is just as quiet and smooth riding (adaptive air suspension), will kill it 0-60 (3.3 sec) and is 3x more efficient. And I can carry a full size desk in the hatchback cargo area. In every scenario that is important to me, the gas vehicle is inferior. Not to mention I can preheat-cool my interior from my phone, even if it were parked in doors. A same weight EV will kill the ICE cars. Did you not see the videos? And EV that weighs 1000lbs more than the gas car, can still be competitive.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

First of all, there is no guarantee the M5CS with 600 HP more is going to be 20 seconds faster on the Nurburgring. And even if it were as quick, in real-life driving, it is not going to have the effortless torque of an EV or average 80mpg. You don't seem to get it. My i4M50 is much more sure footed in the rain than your 540ix. Is just as quiet and smooth riding (adaptive air suspension), will kill it 0-60 (3.3 sec) and is 3x more efficient. And I can carry a full size desk in the hatchback cargo area. In every scenario that is important to me, the gas vehicle is inferior. Not to mention I can preheat-cool my interior from my phone, even if it were parked in doors. A same weight EV will kill the ICE cars. Did you not see the videos? And EV that weighs 1000lbs more than the gas car, can still be competitive.

EVs make awesome short-distance daily drivers. Ok got it.

A 5000+lb EV on a racetrack will need to change tires as often as it needs to charge - every few laps. Can we PLEASE stop pretending EVs are race cars?

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

First of all, there is no guarantee the M5CS with 600 HP more is going to be 20 seconds faster on the Nurburgring. And even if it were as quick, in real-life driving, it is not going to have the effortless torque of an EV or average 80mpg. You don't seem to get it. My i4M50 is much more sure footed in the rain than your 540ix. Is just as quiet and smooth riding (adaptive air suspension), will kill it 0-60 (3.3 sec) and is 3x more efficient. And I can carry a full size desk in the hatchback cargo area. In every scenario that is important to me, the gas vehicle is inferior. Not to mention I can preheat-cool my interior from my phone, even if it were parked in doors. A same weight EV will kill the ICE cars. Did you not see the videos? And EV that weighs 1000lbs more than the gas car, can still be competitive.

Physics is not your fortè, and you appear not to be particularly interested in driving.

And that is ok.

I wish you all the best in your electric vehicle. May you one day have an EV with 2,000 horsepower, the finest leather, and an in-cabin fragrance unit.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Neusser

Physics is not your fortè, and you appear not to be particularly interested in driving.

And that is ok.

I wish you all the best in your electric vehicle. May you one day have an EV with 2,000 horsepower, the finest leather, and an in-cabin fragrance unit.

We are going beyond the obvious. Okay Mr. Physics Professor, of course EVERYONE knows a lighter vehicle will have better performance capabilities, duh! Like I said, if you are a track monkey and want to have the most fun, get yourself a light weight go-kart. I have had my share of track time, motorcycle racing, and 100s of drag strip runs. I took out floor mats, emptied the washer tank, went with lightweight wheels, etc. So weight was of critical concern in my racing excursions. You don't need to explain to me what a glorious car an M5 CS is on the track. In reality, most of those that pretend they need all that extra track potential of their gas cars probably don't even drive as fast as I do every day. And I don't know about 2000hp. But I plan on being first in line if something like that 1200HP quad motor i4 comes out. In the meantime, where you do 90% of your driving, the EV offers superior performance. Electric motors have superior power curves, but yes, the batteries need to get better. But even with current battery tech, EVs are very compelling. Also, remember, electric grid power is pretty much 100% domestic instead of foreign oil. But keep hanging on to your ICE dreams. Maybe someday they will come out with a gas powered shaver, blender and vacuum cleaner for you as you choke on the fumes.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Blue Angel

EVs make awesome short-distance daily drivers. Ok got it.

A 5000+lb EV on a racetrack will need to change tires as often as it needs to charge - every few laps. Can we PLEASE stop pretending EVs are race cars?

Most serious race cars heavy or not will go through tires at an exceptional rate. And yes, that is the point. Most of us don't buy a BMW to be a race car! Even though many commenters are pretending that their non-EV cars are race cars, though they are far from it. And yes, while you may have fun when you go to the track once a week/month/year? With nearly 600lbs of instant torque, I have fun in my car EVERY time I drive it. I has uncanny traction in the wet, and still pulls at respectable .97g on the skid pad, and has a smooth quiet and luxurious ride, laser headlights, and exceptionally rated HK system, great ADAS system, loads of cargo room. Its just a great all around, enjoyable car.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

We are going beyond the obvious. Okay Mr. Physics Professor, of course EVERYONE knows a lighter vehicle will have better performance capabilities, duh! Like I said, if you are a track monkey and want to have the most fun, get yourself a light weight go-kart. I have had my share of track time, motorcycle racing, and 100s of drag strip runs. I took out floor mats, emptied the washer tank, went with lightweight wheels, etc. So weight was of critical concern in my racing excursions. You don't need to explain to me what a glorious car an M5 CS is on the track. In reality, most of those that pretend they need all that extra track potential of their gas cars probably don't even drive as fast as I do every day. And I don't know about 2000hp. But I plan on being first in line if something like that 1200HP quad motor i4 comes out. In the meantime, where you do 90% of your driving, the EV offers superior performance. Electric motors have superior power curves, but yes, the batteries need to get better. But even with current battery tech, EVs are very compelling. Also, remember, electric grid power is pretty much 100% domestic instead of foreign oil. But keep hanging on to your ICE dreams. Maybe someday they will come out with a gas powered shaver, blender and vacuum cleaner for you as you choke on the fumes.

You are free to drive your 5,000-lbs EV around and feel wonderful about it.

Don't let me dissuade you.

[LVBMW]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

We are going beyond the obvious. Okay Mr. Physics Professor, of course EVERYONE knows a lighter vehicle will have better performance capabilities, duh! Like I said, if you are a track monkey and want to have the most fun, get yourself a light weight go-kart. I have had my share of track time, motorcycle racing, and 100s of drag strip runs. I took out floor mats, emptied the washer tank, went with lightweight wheels, etc. So weight was of critical concern in my racing excursions. You don't need to explain to me what a glorious car an M5 CS is on the track. In reality, most of those that pretend they need all that extra track potential of their gas cars probably don't even drive as fast as I do every day. And I don't know about 2000hp. But I plan on being first in line if something like that 1200HP quad motor i4 comes out. In the meantime, where you do 90% of your driving, the EV offers superior performance. Electric motors have superior power curves, but yes, the batteries need to get better. But even with current battery tech, EVs are very compelling. Also, remember, electric grid power is pretty much 100% domestic instead of foreign oil. But keep hanging on to your ICE dreams. Maybe someday they will come out with a gas powered shaver, blender and vacuum cleaner for you as you choke on the fumes.

I think many appreciate what you’re trying to do, but you’re debating with an individual who is a believer in anti-EV conspiracy theories and posts about them. I think his latest theory is that EVs are being foisted upon the ignorant masses by a nefarious world order intending to ensure that no one owns anything. Or something to that effect.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by LVBMW

I think many appreciate what you’re trying to do, but you’re debating with an individual who is a believer in anti-EV conspiracy theories and posts about them. I think his latest theory that EVs are being foisted upon the ignorant masses by a nefarious world order intending to ensure that no one owns anything. Or something to that effect.

Well, they are the ones who told us we would "own nothing and be happy."

They aren't my words. There is a whole world out there for you to explore consumer bro.

Don't take my word for it.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Neusser

You are free to drive your 5,000-lbs EV around and feel wonderful about it.

Don't let me dissuade you.

Oh don't worry. I went straight from racing cars to pure EVs only now. I have seen both sides. Right now a Porsche Taycan Turbo GTS would be an ideal car for me if money were not an object. 2 sec 0-60. High 9 second quarter mile, low 7 second Nurburgring time, and a great car to live with and be seen in. Its not a go-kart, nor does it pretend to be one. But while you think EVs are not your cup of Tea, the manufacturers know where they are going to be focusing their efforts. Take a look at the Mission X below. So you can adapt, or be left behind.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Neusser

A Plaid weighs 2,265 kg or 4,993 lbs. The Taycan is 2370 kg or 5224 lbs.

The Taycan has a bit more power and likely a more track-focused setup being a Porsche.

An M5 CS is track-focused and weighs 1,900 kg or 4,188 lbs.

The M5 CS is about 800 to 1000 lbs lighter. Yes, 800 to 1000 lighter.

It has roughly 600 hp. Give it one fucking thousand thirty four horsepower and we know exactly what will happen.

Why you are even arguing this is beyond me. It's just embarassing at this point.

Or only 578 lbs lighter, depending on what figures you use.. Not bad considering the Plaid is an even roomier hatch back with no concessions to comfort.

[Neusser]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Oh don't worry. I went straight from racing cars to pure EVs only now. I have seen both sides. Right now a Porsche Taycan Turbo GTS would be an ideal car for me if money were not an object. 2 sec 0-60. High 9 second quarter mile, low 7 second Nurburgring time, and a great car to live with and be seen in. Its not a go-kart, nor does it pretend to be one. But while you think EVs are not your cup of Tea, the manufacturers know where they are going to be focusing their efforts. Take a look at the Mission X below. So you can adapt, or be left behind.

Again, I wish you well EV broseph. May you leave us all behind.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Neusser

Again, I wish you well EV broseph. May you leave us all behind.

Believe me, it is awesome being next to gas cars to hear all their straining engine noises and fart shifting sounds. So please, keep driving what you drive. It is quite boring lining up with other EVs. The only problem with a loud gas car next to you is it instantly attracts the wrong kind of attention from law enforcement.