[stein_325i]

A good video that applies here. The cost of entry is low. To get more power or a turbo would like increase the base price.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by PopsnBurbles

I don't know. I think cars should start to get slower or at least not get much faster. The general driving competence (at least in Los Angeles) is pretty low that I don't trust the average person driving around in a 4s 0-60 mph weapon. Even a financially irresponsible teen can get an M3...No thank, you. Get me 10 miles away from that person.

Heck, a 7s 0-60 E90 328i is plenty fast enough that it can get dangerous fast for the average consumer. Especially when these cars are relatively attainable for a working teenager...

I'm saying this exactly because a sub 5 second car (135i) is more than scary enough already and can get you in a dangerous situation with a bit of carelessness or arrogance.

On the topic of this car, the Toyo-Baru 86 is right where it's at for a fun, daily-able, and economic.

Originally Posted by XMetal

To echo kyriian's sentiment, a "sports car" is not all about 0-60, or straight line speed. Can your 4000lbs Mercedes GLC300 keep up with the Toyobaru when the road isn't straight? People get too caught up in the 0-60 times these days. Teenagers in their Corollas/Civics are trying to drag race me at stop lights all the time when I'm in the Mcoupe for some reasons.

When the road isn't straight, that's what I have the M2 for (and soon an SS 1LE). It will space both the Toybaru and the GLC by similar distance.

And I do hear what you're trying to say about a cheap, slow, but fun car. But what does the driving an underpowered coupe prepare you for? There isn't much oversteer to manage, and when it occurs, it occurs s-l-o-w-l-y in comparison to more powerful options.

Next you jump into a proper 400+ HP car with an EXTRA 300 lb-ft, and realize your reflexes are not there, and this is a whole new ball game. Because how can you learn to manage excessive power with less than 190 lb-ft of tire spinning torque??

I learned to drive fast on a C5 Z06. Then when I got a Mustang GT, I had to learn more, because that car always wanted to go sideways and kill me whenever I gave it a chance. Tracking that car for 5 years was a great way to hone skill, butt gyro, and driver's reflexes. When I switched to the M2 after that, it felt very easy to drive fast. I didn't have to do as much to keep it in check.

I imagine stepping from an 86 into an M2C takes a learning curve. From the Mustang to M2 the curve is reversed. In a "calm down on the steering wheel, the car will sort itself under constant throttle" sort of way.

My point is that if the car doesn't have more power than you as a driver can handle from the start, you're not learning as much as your otherwise would. So yeah, perhaps you won't crash right away in a 86, and instead you will in an M4, or a Mustang, or a Vette, when the 86 gives you a false sense of "skill." Because the skill required to handle half the power and 1/3 of the TQ, is less than half the skill you otherwise might acquire. That's why I think it's a missed opportunity. $36k turbo or supercharged version would do well with a lot of drivers.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

And you'd be paying big time for all of these things.

I just don't believe that. The price of a supercharger/tune and a set of wheels/tires is nearly negligible for the manufacturer.

Originally Posted by Burrcold

People have so much fun modding these cars because of the low starting price. There's no fun if too much has been done already (again for the target demographic of these cars).

Although I agree with you on this point, I'd say that the vast majority of these cars won't be modded right out of the box, only years later. We get board-itis because we are enthusiasts, but the mod-bug isn't as prolific as you think with new cars.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I just don't believe that. The price of a supercharger/tune and a set of wheels/tires is nearly negligible for the manufacturer.

This.

When the OG M2 turned into an M2C and gained an extra turbo, the MSRP didn't change by more than $1500.

[AlpineBoost]

https://www.motor1.com/news/455452/s...ains-no-turbo/

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

I just don't believe that. The price of a supercharger/tune and a set of wheels/tires is nearly negligible for the manufacturer.



Although I agree with you on this point, I'd say that the vast majority of these cars won't be modded right out of the box, only years later. We get board-itis because we are enthusiasts, but the mod-bug isn't as prolific as you think with new cars.

So if you think the price would be negligible and it would give a far better car out of the box, I'm assuming you must be implying that Toyota/Subaru just want to stick it to the consumer for the fun of it? Doubtful...

[supra93]

The GR 86 will be sold in Europe.

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/world-pre...all-new-gr-86/

World Premiere of All-New GR 86

• Faithful to the fun to drive characteristic concept of its predecessor
• Responsive and engaging with light weight, low centre of gravity and agile handling
• 3rd model in GR sports car line-up, joining widely-acclaimed GR Supra and GR Yaris
• New 2.4-litre horizontally opposed four-cylinder engine delivers increased performance

The eagerly anticipated all-new GR 86 made its global debut today at a joint online event between TOYOTA GAZOO Racing and Subaru Corporation. Toyota’s latest sports car offering complements the GR portfolio, featuring the widely-acclaimed GR Supra and GR Yaris, as the third global GR model.

The new GR 86 inherits the key fun to drive characteristics of the original GT86, launched in 2012 and went on to sell over 200,000 units worldwide. It is expected to be the lightest four-seater coupé in the segment thanks to a wide range of weight saving initiatives such as the use of aluminium roof and body panels.

Powered by a new lightweight horizontally opposed four-cylinder engine which is increased to 2.4-litre displacement, the performance of the GR 86 is stepped up from its predecessor.

The dimensions of the new GR 86 are almost identical to the GT86, allowing the new model to maintain a low centre of gravity for enhanced agility. Torsional rigidity has also been increased by some 50% compared to the GT86 to deliver even sharper handling and steering ability.

Functional aerodynamic components such as the front air ducts and side rocker panels, among others, were developed from the model’s participation in motorsport, helping the GR 86 achieve expected best in class handling and stability.

The all-new GR 86 will be launched in Europe. More details will follow later this year.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

When the road isn't straight, that's what I have the M2 for (and soon an SS 1LE). It will space both the Toybaru and the GLC by similar distance.

And I do hear what you're trying to say about a cheap, slow, but fun car. But what does the driving an underpowered coupe prepare you for? There isn't much oversteer to manage, and when it occurs, it occurs s-l-o-w-l-y in comparison to more powerful options.

Next you jump into a proper 400+ HP car with an EXTRA 300 lb-ft, and realize your reflexes are not there, and this is a whole new ball game. Because how can you learn to manage excessive power with less than 190 lb-ft of tire spinning torque??

I learned to drive fast on a C5 Z06. Then when I got a Mustang GT, I had to learn more, because that car always wanted to go sideways and kill me whenever I gave it a chance. Tracking that car for 5 years was a great way to hone skill, butt gyro, and driver's reflexes. When I switched to the M2 after that, it felt very easy to drive fast. I didn't have to do as much to keep it in check.

I imagine stepping from an 86 into an M2C takes a learning curve. From the Mustang to M2 the curve is reversed. In a "calm down on the steering wheel, the car will sort itself under constant throttle" sort of way.

My point is that if the car doesn't have more power than you as a driver can handle from the start, you're not learning as much as your otherwise would. So yeah, perhaps you won't crash right away in a 86, and instead you will in an M4, or a Mustang, or a Vette, when the 86 gives you a false sense of "skill." Because the skill required to handle half the power and 1/3 of the TQ, is less than half the skill you otherwise might acquire. That's why I think it's a missed opportunity. $36k turbo or supercharged version would do well with a lot of drivers.

If you aren't getting the rear out in a low power car, you aren't driving very fast. If you are using 100% of the grip of the tire a small amount of throttle will bring the rear around. If you aren't driving with slip angle angle, you aren't driving fast. If you can't do that in a low HP car, you aren't as fast as you think you are.

I suspect an SM driver would get in your car and make you realize you aren't "fast."

We get it, you don't like the car. So don't buy one.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

And you'd be paying big time for all of these things. The point of this car is how affordable it is out of the box. People have so much fun modding these cars because of the low starting price. There's no fun if too much has been done already (again for the target demographic of these cars).

Exactly. My '15 BRZ had 18x9.5 with 255/35 Star Specs.

[supra93]

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Burrcold

So if you think the price would be negligible and it would give a far better car out of the box, I'm assuming you must be implying that Toyota/Subaru just want to stick it to the consumer for the fun of it? Doubtful...

That's an incorrect argument.

I believe they could have made the car more appealing with those few changes, yes, and that they wouldn't have had a significant cost to the manufacturer, but I'm sure they had their reasons.

And yes, it's their job to "stick it to the consumer", or put more politely; to make a profit.

[Burrcold]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

That's an incorrect argument.

I believe they could have made the car more appealing with those few changes, yes, and that they wouldn't have had a significant cost to the manufacturer, but I'm sure they had their reasons.

And yes, it's their job to "stick it to the consumer", or put more politely; to make a profit.

No point in going back and forth. Agree to disagree.

[detroitm2]

Hopefully the release of this drives down the resale value of the old ones (the BRZ or FRS). I've been itching to get my hands on one to strip, turbo charge, and turn into a track weapon.

Also feel it was a missed opportunity to put a turbo on this thing. Power is the #1 complaint that most people have on this car. If you're trying to compete with a Miata, you're going to have to do something "special" to pull ahead.

[NickyC]

The car doesn't interest me personally, but I do enjoy it every time I see a young person driving one. It tells me there's another generation of auto enthusiasts upcoming and there might just be hope after all. The kids buying these cars are the ones who will help keep the 6MT alive as long as possible.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Just me or does it look like a Nissan?

Front looks similar to the upcoming 400Z (or whatever it's going to be called) but it's a much more tidier cohesive package than the Nissan that has a modern front end and retro rear end.

[Merami fan]

It's not about power or straight line speed. The 86 has always focused on cornering ability achieved through balance and being lightweight. NA engine and manual are crucial aspects, too. Watch this for an idea:

These cars are tuned, but the video still shows the strengths of the GR86.

Keiichi Tsuchiya (the Drift King) had a positive impression of the outgoing 86, although it's definitely slow on a track. These current or former professional drivers have tested pretty much every sports car under the sun. They basically agree that more power is good on large, open circuits, but on narrow, winding roads, it's all about cornering and weight. Their personal cars are along the lines of AE86 and MK4 Supra, although they could afford things like the M8C or AMG GT R which they've tested. A 340hp S2000 is faster (by 0.8s, ~25s lap time) on this course than the 577hp AMG GT R.

This is a good demonstration of the impact weight has between two cars with similar power:

I do agree that it could use significantly more power, but that's ultimately not the focus of the platform (identical to BRZ). You can always add power yourself. We all know these engines can handle way more than stock power with original internals.

[supra93]

A few more pics from the GR site.

https://toyotagazooracing.com/gr/86/

[kyleb350]

To those wishing this car had more horsepower/torque, had a turbo, or had a quicker 0-60 time, good news. Toyota does have another model for that

[Merami fan]

Originally Posted by kyleb350

To those wishing this car had more horsepower/torque, had a turbo, or had a quicker 0-60 time, good news. Toyota does have another model for that

A car that 3 series owners will feel right at home in

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by OkieSnuffBox

If you aren't getting the rear out in a low power car, you aren't driving very fast. If you are using 100% of the grip of the tire a small amount of throttle will bring the rear around. If you aren't driving with slip angle angle, you aren't driving fast. If you can't do that in a low HP car, you aren't as fast as you think you are.

I suspect an SM driver would get in your car and make you realize you aren't "fast."

We get it, you don't like the car. So don't buy one.

I know, I know, I'm slow AF. Never claimed to be fast.

But if only I could drive a slower, more under-tired car, I'm sure my Nürburgring Nordschleife lap time would improve drastically.

You grow into a car as a driver, NOT the other way around.

[OkieSnuffBox]

Originally Posted by detroitm2

Hopefully the release of this drives down the resale value of the old ones (the BRZ or FRS). I've been itching to get my hands on one to strip, turbo charge, and turn into a track weapon.

Also feel it was a missed opportunity to put a turbo on this thing. Power is the #1 complaint that most people have on this car. If you're trying to compete with a Miata, you're going to have to do something "special" to pull ahead.

The only people who complain about are people who don't own one.

[detroitm2]

Originally Posted by kyleb350

To those wishing this car had more horsepower/torque, had a turbo, or had a quicker 0-60 time, good news. Toyota does have another model for that

Also doesn't have a manual option.