[klammer]

Does anyone know what kind if lap times they were putting down? I always like to see where my four door/grocery getter/wife's DD stacks up against purpose built race cars

[C-M2]

Originally Posted by klammer

Does anyone know what kind if lap times they were putting down? I always like to see where my four door/grocery getter/wife's DD stacks up against purpose built race cars

2:05's

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The Z4 isn't naturally aspirated either. The engine used in the Z4 GTE/GT3 cars has nothing to do with the production engine. I believe they still run the BMW P65 engine, which is a flat-plane, race-only engine.

My point is that it's not unusual at all for manufacturers to run a different engine in race cars than they do in street cars. That's not to say I think they're going to continue running the P65 though.

As Blipit and tallshortguy are discussing, we're at a bit of a transitional point in automotive racing. FIA F1 has gone forced induction again, and the smart money is on IMSA (and other sanctioning bodies) following suit to make their rules more favorable to forced induction.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by C-M2

2:05's

What's a good production car lap time (street tires) at RA? 2:50-ish?

[C-M2]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

What's a good production car lap time (street tires) at RA? 2:50-ish?

Yeah in that range. I've known a few cars dip into the 2:30's, Lots of cars in the 2:40's

NASA GTS3 spec cars put down low 2:30's

Continental Tire Challenge cars like Fall-Line's e92 M3 they qualified for pole position with a 2:22.590

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The Z4 isn't naturally aspirated either. The engine used in the Z4 GTE/GT3 cars has nothing to do with the production engine. I believe they still run the BMW P65 engine, which is a flat-plane, race-only engine.

My point is that it's not unusual at all for manufacturers to run a different engine in race cars than they do in street cars. That's not to say I think they're going to continue running the P65 though.

As Blipit and tallshortguy are discussing, we're at a bit of a transitional point in automotive racing. FIA F1 has gone forced induction again, and the smart money is on IMSA (and other sanctioning bodies) following suit to make their rules more favorable to forced induction.

Not exactly true. They are derived from production engines, that is part of the homologation rules. As per the IMSA rule book: cylinder block, cylinder heads, valve angles, number and location of camshafts must remain original, as they are fitted on the series vehicle. The P65 4.0L and 4.4L have the exact same bore and stroke as production engines. The engine parts are significantly beefed up for reliability, but under current rules. Now if you were talking about DTM, they have nothing to do with production engines.

When it comes to turbo or supercharged powerplants. The rule book makes things difficult. The IMSA rules state the intercooler and the manifold, the whole original turbo/supercharging system must be retained and not modified. There is no way in hell BMW can run a stock S55 intercooler, manifold, and turbo. The rules need major adjustment, the cars would simply overheat in a couple laps.

[klammer]

Originally Posted by C-M2

Yeah in that range. I've known a few cars dip into the 2:30's, Lots of cars in the 2:40's

NASA GTS3 spec cars put down low 2:30's

Continental Tire Challenge cars like Fall-Line's e92 M3 they qualified for pole position with a 2:22.590

My best time there is to just crack into the 2:38's...and that's on street tires with full interior, and going out to dinner with the wife in same car right after 2:05's are insane!!!!

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Not exactly true. They are derived from production engines, that is part of the homologation rules. As per the IMSA rule book: cylinder block, cylinder heads, valve angles, number and location of camshafts must remain original, as they are fitted on the series vehicle. The P65 4.0L and 4.4L have the exact same bore and stroke as production engines. The engine parts are significantly beefed up for reliability, but under current rules. Now if you were talking about DTM, they have nothing to do with production engines.

When it comes to turbo or supercharged powerplants. The rule book makes things difficult. The IMSA rules state the intercooler and the manifold, the whole original turbo/supercharging system must be retained and not modified. There is no way in hell BMW can run a stock S55 intercooler, manifold, and turbo. The rules need major adjustment, the cars would simply overheat in a couple laps.

this was going to be my next question...

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

Not exactly true. They are derived from production engines, that is part of the homologation rules. As per the IMSA rule book: cylinder block, cylinder heads, valve angles, number and location of camshafts must remain original, as they are fitted on the series vehicle. The P65 4.0L and 4.4L have the exact same bore and stroke as production engines. The engine parts are significantly beefed up for reliability, but under current rules. Now if you were talking about DTM, they have nothing to do with production engines.

When it comes to turbo or supercharged powerplants. The rule book makes things difficult. The IMSA rules state the intercooler and the manifold, the whole original turbo/supercharging system must be retained and not modified. There is no way in hell BMW can run a stock S55 intercooler, manifold, and turbo. The rules need major adjustment, the cars would simply overheat in a couple laps.

That doesn't really rebut what I said. I said: "The engine used in the Z4 GTE/GT3 cars has nothing to do with the production engine [in the Z4]." When was the last time the Z4 was offered with the S65 (the engine upon which the P65 is based)? My point to the OP was that there's nothing stopping BMW from dropping the P65 in to an F8x shell for racing purposes (or at least trying).

The question of homologation requirements with the Z4/P65 combo is well tread ground (example). I don't think anyone fully understands how/why the P65 has been permitted in the Z4 when the production car has no such engine. My theory is that IMSA/USCC simply needs to keep race cars in the grid to keep the series alive.

In a broad sense, yes, I agree with you. The homologation rules for FI cars make it nigh impossible to build a homologated FI car. I believe that plays a large part in why the P65 was allowed in the Z4 (and I'd assume would be allowed in an F8x race car). I could be wrong about that. At the time the race Z4 was introduced, BMW still produced the M3 in sufficient quantities to satisfy the engine homologation requirements; albeit in separate production cars (strange).

The one thing I've learned about racing regulations is that they are the cart, not the horse.

[DieGrüneHölle]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

That doesn't really rebut what I said. I said: "The engine used in the Z4 GTE/GT3 cars has nothing to do with the production engine [in the Z4]." When was the last time the Z4 was offered with the S65 (the engine upon which the P65 is based)? My point to the OP was that there's nothing stopping BMW from dropping the P65 in to an F8x shell for racing purposes (or at least trying).

Gotchya, misunderstood what you were trying to say. Only sticking point with continuing to use the P65 is the engine it is based upon is no longer in production. That fact is kinda in a grey area of the homologation rules. Also if BMW has decided to go all forced induction in the showroom, one would think they would want to represent that in their racing programs.

Originally Posted by bradleyland

The question of homologation requirements with the Z4/P65 combo is well tread ground (example). I don't think anyone fully understands how/why the P65 has been permitted in the Z4 when the production car has no such engine. My theory is that IMSA/USCC simply needs to keep race cars in the grid to keep the series alive.

Agree 100%. IMSA simply didn't want to lose BMW from the grid. I just wonder why other makes don't follow suit and convert their GT3 car into GTLM specs. Would IMSA allow other makes to circumvent the homologation rules...who knows?

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

What more prominent cars are you talking about? They will only race their smaller cars now, so either M3 or smaller. They retired the old M3 GT3 for the Z4 GT3 and the new M3 has just come out. Your trolling is becoming tiresome.

How about M235i, or the M4.. racing in America, or any other car series..?


Obviously, BMW isn't in Formula 1 anymore, so where is the M-development..? I am very sick of going to the races and walking the paddocks, & seeing the exact same BMW's.. when BMW has newer cars out. When is BMW going to test their own turbo engines in competition..? That is why we go to races, to see production cars work.

The BMW M235i R was out before the 2-series, yet it is not in any races yet. Is not even on America soil...



I agree.. asking BMW to become what they once were, is getting tiresome..!

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

How about M235i, or the M4.. racing in America, or any other car series..?


Obviously, BMW isn't in Formula 1 anymore, so where is the M-development..? I am very sick of going to the races and walking the paddocks, & seeing the exact same BMW's.. when BMW has newer cars out. When is BMW going to test their own turbo engines in competition..? That is why we go to races, to see production cars work.

The BMW M235i R was out before the 2-series, yet it is not in any races yet. Is not even on America soil...

I agree.. asking BMW to become what they once were, is getting tiresome..!

Both cars were just released, beside sthe M235i will likely not be the platform for their next GT car. It will either be the M4 or next gen Z platform. The Z4 GT3 was released only a few years ago, it has not run the course of a typical GT car's life. The M4 was released in the middle of the GT racing season, of course it hasn't been raced yet. Besides, with the Z4 having at least a couple of years left that leaves BMW time to take their time deriving their next race engine.

M235i Racing has been racing in their own cup as part of the VLN series in europe all year, they just raced this past weekend. Besides, the only place for them to run in the US is modified street series like Continental as part of an independent team. The current 1 and 3 series teams may very well start developing their 2 series cars soon, they're not going to just insert a brand new car into their lineup over their long tested current cars. Also, it was released during the season as well so I'm not sure why you expect them to do.

btw, why are you responding 2 weeks later?

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

Both cars were just released, beside sthe M235i will likely not be the platform for their next GT car. It will either be the M4 or next gen Z platform. The Z4 GT3 was released only a few years ago, it has not run the course of a typical GT car's life. The M4 was released in the middle of the GT racing season, of course it hasn't been raced yet. Besides, with the Z4 having at least a couple of years left that leaves BMW time to take their time deriving their next race engine.

M235i Racing has been racing in their own cup as part of the VLN series in europe all year, they just raced this past weekend. Besides, the only place for them to run in the US is modified street series like Continental as part of an independent team. The current 1 and 3 series teams may very well start developing their 2 series cars soon, they're not going to just insert a brand new car into their lineup over their long tested current cars. Also, it was released during the season as well so I'm not sure why you expect them to do.

btw, why are you responding 2 weeks later?

Is there a response time..?

Yeah, yeah... in 2017 we will start to see current BMW's race. Not inspiring when you walk the paddocks..


The M235i R is racing itself.
Therefore it is not competing.. I'd like to see BMW up against it's rivals.. not protected their turbos, by racing against itself.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by w3rkn

Is there a response time..?

Yeah, yeah... in 2017 we will start to see current BMW's race. Not inspiring when you walk the paddocks..


The M235i R is racing itself.
Therefore it is not competing.. I'd like to see BMW up against it's rivals.. not protected their turbos, by racing against itself.

Normally it's appreciated if someone doesn't take 3 weeks to resurrect an already run it's course thread with a response, especially with many posts in this thread discussing what you said about the Z4.

The M235i racing was released during the season of major "tuner/street" series, what are you expecting it to race in? It isn't meant to be a factory car, BMW even says it's for independent teams, which aren't going to put a brand new car into a series half way through the season. lol protecting turbos, this has nothing to do with turbos since most of these street car series have plenty of turbocharged cars. Please list which series and classes you think the M235i racing should be racing in right now, I'm honestly perplexed as to what your specific expectations are as no one else has expressed this concern.

[w3rkn]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

Normally it's appreciated if someone doesn't take 3 weeks to resurrect an already run it's course thread with a response, especially with many posts in this thread discussing what you said about the Z4.

The M235i racing was released during the season of major "tuner/street" series, what are you expecting it to race in? It isn't meant to be a factory car, BMW even says it's for independent teams, which aren't going to put a brand new car into a series half way through the season. lol protecting turbos, this has nothing to do with turbos since most of these street car series have plenty of turbocharged cars. Please list which series and classes you think the M235i racing should be racing in right now, I'm honestly perplexed as to what your specific expectations are as no one else has expressed this concern.

Exactly, not for sale to compete in other series. BMW won't sell the M235i Racing in America, guess they don't want someone like Turner, racing it against Corvettes, Astons, Mustangs, Porsches...? Honestly, why isn't BMW mucking it up with it's rivals in the Pirelli World Challenge with it's new cars... instead of having nearly zero presence..?

Or, is all that^ coming next year..? (Or, is that in a lethargic 5 years..?)



Not hard to understand, I just want to see BMW compete.. with something new. As their racing portfolio has grown rather stagnant... Z4 & M3..?

I have a million photos of the Turner cars, time for something fresh & new...

[954Stealth]

It's hard to make just any car fit with the FIA GT rules.
The GTLM/GTE/GTD/GT3, etc. and the Z4 platform are a good fit. I believe there will be some new GT rules coming out in 2016 so perhaps after that BMW will look to another chassis to race.
The only other way you'll see one of these race is through privateers and a street tuner (for example) class.