[Lady Jane]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Guilty as charged. I hope you brought your gavel.

Gavel...? HA!


Attachment 2628079

[pukicabuki]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

When I say homeless like being homeless, I realize that it's a generalization and not every person fits that mold; there are outliers and percentages that don't enjoy those conditions. That said, there are large percentages that do, and that is why the situations are so pervasive.

This is the ugly truth that the well meaning, though generally misinformed, public fails to realize. My wife worked in the community court serving one of the largest homeless populations in the country for many years(Portland) and it was a revolving door of kids from middle class homes that like the lifestyle and want to rebel and older people that want to be left alone to do as they please.

The ones that are homeless and don't want to be are the ones taking advantage of every program available to get back on their feet. The public thinks that all homeless people are these people, but they really aren't. These are the invisible homeless. They aren't living in tent communities, destroying neighborhoods and stealing things to feed an addiction.

There is a significant portion with mental illnesses, but without institutionalizing this portion of the homeless population, you cannot treat them. The others that came through the system were offered treatment and housing as a means help break the cycle and 95% of the time they would take the fine, knowing they wouldn't pay it, and go back to what they are doing.

Its a shitty realization to come to, but my wife saw this day in and day out for years. All the best intentions in the world won't make someone take help when they don't want it.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by pukicabuki

This is the ugly truth that the well meaning, though generally misinformed, public fails to realize. My wife worked in the community court serving one of the largest homeless populations in the country for many years(Portland) and it was a revolving door of kids from middle class homes that like the lifestyle and want to rebel and older people that want to be left alone to do as they please.

The ones that are homeless and don't want to be are the ones taking advantage of every program available to get back on their feet. The public thinks that all homeless people are these people, but they really aren't. These are the invisible homeless. They aren't living in tent communities, destroying neighborhoods and stealing things to feed an addiction.

There is a significant portion with mental illnesses, but without institutionalizing this portion of the homeless population, you cannot treat them. The others that came through the system were offered treatment and housing as a means help break the cycle and 95% of the time they would take the fine, knowing they wouldn't pay it, and go back to what they are doing.

Its a shitty realization to come to, but my wife saw this day in and day out for years. All the best intentions in the world won't make someone take help when they don't want it.

+1

This, my friends, is the hard truth. Another fine point that you mentioned is the administration of fines, and to be more specific: warrants. The homeless population is ripe with individuals who have them, but we generally leave them alone unless it's a no-bail warrant (…which mandates a hard booking, much like Prop.47). They are often repeat offenders who have no desire to clean up their act(s).

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

+1

This, my friends, is the hard truth.

Pretty much. Our society will always have new poor & homeless.

"The American economy runs on poverty, or at least the constant threat of it."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/13/o...s-poverty.html

If we didn't have the successful programs to get the willing housed & off the street that we do have, even more would suffer.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by pukicabuki

This is the ugly truth that the well meaning, though generally misinformed, public fails to realize. My wife worked in the community court serving one of the largest homeless populations in the country for many years(Portland) and it was a revolving door of kids from middle class homes that like the lifestyle and want to rebel and older people that want to be left alone to do as they please.

The ones that are homeless and don't want to be are the ones taking advantage of every program available to get back on their feet. The public thinks that all homeless people are these people, but they really aren't. These are the invisible homeless. They aren't living in tent communities, destroying neighborhoods and stealing things to feed an addiction.

There is a significant portion with mental illnesses, but without institutionalizing this portion of the homeless population, you cannot treat them. The others that came through the system were offered treatment and housing as a means help break the cycle and 95% of the time they would take the fine, knowing they wouldn't pay it, and go back to what they are doing.

Its a shitty realization to come to, but my wife saw this day in and day out for years. All the best intentions in the world won't make someone take help when they don't want it.

Yes. I worked in downtown Toronto for much of my career. A huge homeless population. Tons of shelter beds that for the most part remain empty even in the middle of cold shitty winters. Mental health issues, drug addiction, violence, petty crime etc are rampant. They have put these shelters in marginal areas but have also started putting them in more affluent neighbourhoods.......now all the progressive folks are dealing with human waste, dirty needles and crime right on their doorsteps literally and figuratively. There are camp grounds set up in just about every park in the city with no method to treat the drug addiction and more of a significant problem in my view serious mental illness.

In the 90's the Ontario government changed many sections of the Mental Health Act, so patients were related from secure facilities where they got three squares, a clean bed, treatment and medication. I get that wasn't a perfect solution but I think the argument is easily made that it was much better than what we have now. Some of the ongoing "remedies" being implemented and proposed are safe injection sites and decriminalizing all drugs in Toronto.....I'm going to predict this isn't going to make it better but what do I know, I'm just an old retired policeman.

[Patton250]

Cool thread. I think I have an awesome question. One that I never thought I would ask. So here it is.

Why in the world would any man or woman stay being a police officer today knowing what you know now? Don’t get me wrong if you’re a couple years from retirement I get that but other than that why would you?

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Murf993

Yes. I worked in downtown Toronto for much of my career. A huge homeless population. Tons of shelter beds that for the most part remain empty even in the middle of cold shitty winters. Mental health issues, drug addiction, violence, petty crime etc are rampant. They have put these shelters in marginal areas but have also started putting them in more affluent neighbourhoods.......now all the progressive folks are dealing with human waste, dirty needles and crime right on their doorsteps literally and figuratively. There are camp grounds set up in just about every park in the city with no method to treat the drug addiction and more of a significant problem in my view serious mental illness.

In the 90's the Ontario government changed many sections of the Mental Health Act, so patients were related from secure facilities where they got three squares, a clean bed, treatment and medication. I get that wasn't a perfect solution but I think the argument is easily made that it was much better than what we have now. Some of the ongoing "remedies" being implemented and proposed are safe injection sites and decriminalizing all drugs in Toronto.....I'm going to predict this isn't going to make it better but what do I know, I'm just an old retired policeman.

It's going to turn Toronto into Portland or Seattle. Ughhhh! California isn't too far off. Pretty soon people will be able to commit many crimes right in front of me and I'll just whistle Dixie and watch it happen.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Cool thread. I think I have an awesome question. One that I never thought I would ask. So here it is.

Why in the world would any man or woman stay being a police officer today knowing what you know now? Don't get me wrong if you're a couple years from retirement I get that but other than that why would you?

If you're more than 8-10 years in, there's no point in leaving. I would wager than someone with 5+ might as well stay. Most retirements start at 18-ish years and span up to 30+ (…the percentage is based on years of service/longevity plus the average of your 3 or 4 highest earning years), so at the very least, someone with 10 years on only need do an additional 8 to get the bare minimum retirement. One could manipulate that further by killing overtime for a few years to bump your average(s). So the simple answer is……retirement. Secondly, job stability/benefits…..which are very, very good.

Here in California, the vast majority of us make at least $120k (…$10k gross monthly) with minimal/moderate overtime on the low end as line officers/deputies/troopers. Add significant overtime and a line patrolman can clear maybe $140k. Even with zero overtime my base pay is six figures and I'm not even at top step……not even close.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It's going to turn Toronto into Portland or Seattle. Ughhhh! California isn't too far off. Pretty soon people will be able to commit many crimes right in front of me and I'll just whistle Dixie and watch it happen.

I saw something earlier today on Twitter, so it could be wrong but it was a video with the caption that San Francisco has decriminalized petty theft? It sounds bizarre but here in Ontario the Liquor Control Board of Ontario LCBO the sole seller of spirits won't stop you if you shop lift liquor, they lose over $200 Million a year to people just picking up bottles and walking out.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

If you're more than 8-10 years in, there's no point in leaving. Most retirements start at 18-ish years and span up to 30+, so at the very least, someone with 10 years on only need do an additional 8 to get the bare minimum retirement. One could manipulate that further by killing overtime for a few years to bump your average(s). So the simple answer is……retirement.

Is the retirement really worth taking the chance of the media and even police leadership and local politicians sacrificing your life (subsequently taking out your families life as well) if you ever get involved in a justified shooting that’s not politically correct at this particular moment in time? It’s happening all over the place right now. I don’t see any way to reverse it or end in sight. I pray I’m wrong on this. I just don’t see it doing anything but getting worse. What I am talking about now is not opinion or speculation it is hard cold facts. It’s not like police officers make a whole ton of money to begin with. I just can’t see taking the risk. Plus it would bother me personally knowing how unappreciated I was by what seems to be half the country at this point. This is why I asked. I wouldn’t blame these men and women if every last one of them all quit tomorrow. Quite frankly I think the country deserves it the way we’ve crapped all over the police this past year. For those of you who are police officers you have my most sincere apology. You people are most definitely needed and appreciated by lots of us still.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Is the retirement really worth taking the chance of the media and even police leadership and local politicians sacrificing your life (subsequently taking out your families life as well) if you ever get involved in a justified shooting that's not politically correct at this particular moment in time? It's happening all over the place right now. I don't see any way to reverse it or end in sight. I pray I'm wrong on this. I just don't see it doing anything but getting worse. What I am talking about now is not opinion or speculation it is hard cold facts. It's not like police officers make a whole ton of money to begin with. I just can't see taking the risk. Plus it would bother me personally knowing how unappreciated I was by what seems to be half the country at this point. This is why I asked. I wouldn't blame these men and women if every last one of them all quit tomorrow. Quite frankly I think the country deserves it the way we've crapped all over the police this past year. For those of you who are police officers you have my most sincere apology. You people are most definitely needed and appreciated by lots of us still.

The retirement is worth it. Where you work changes your options significantly. Someone who works for a small(er) department is more limited than someone who works for a large Sheriff's department like me or mahalom3. We don't have to stay in patrol. We can work custody, hospitals, courts, …..this or that. If we want(ed) to limit exposure to the public - which I will be doing in the next 2-3 years max - we could transfer. Leaving wouldn't make sense despite the liability because we're already too deep, and easily matching our pay in the private sector would be more difficult…..plus the volatility. At 55 or 57, whichever applies, we can leave and sit on our asses making 50-85% of our highest pay depending on years of service. I have enough years in the private sector to also collect Social Security…..IF it still exists by the time I retire.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The retirement is worth it. Where you work changes your options significantly. Someone who works for a small(er) department is more limited than someone who works for a large Sheriff's department like me or mahalom3. We don't have to stay in patrol. We can work custody, hospitals, courts, …..this or that. If we want(ed) to limit exposure to the public - which I will be doing in the next 2-3 years max - we could transfer. Leaving wouldn't make sense despite the liability because we're already too deep, and easily matching our pay in the private sector would be more difficult…..plus the volatility. At 55 or 57, whichever applies, we can leave and sit on our asses making 50-85% of our highest pay depending on years of service. I have enough years in the private sector to also collect Social Security…..IF it still exists by the time I retire.

That totally makes sense. I appreciate you sharing that. Stay safe man. I personally am more worried about your safety when it comes to government than I am criminals. Blessings to you.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Patton250

That totally makes sense. I appreciate you sharing that. Stay safe man. I personally am more worried about your safety when it comes to government than I am criminals. Blessings to you.

We all appreciate the support. Thank you!

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by Murf993

Yes. I worked in downtown Toronto for much of my career. A huge homeless population. Tons of shelter beds that for the most part remain empty even in the middle of cold shitty winters. Mental health issues, drug addiction, violence, petty crime etc are rampant. They have put these shelters in marginal areas but have also started putting them in more affluent neighbourhoods.......now all the progressive folks are dealing with human waste, dirty needles and crime right on their doorsteps literally and figuratively. There are camp grounds set up in just about every park in the city with no method to treat the drug addiction and more of a significant problem in my view serious mental illness.

In the 90's the Ontario government changed many sections of the Mental Health Act, so patients were related from secure facilities where they got three squares, a clean bed, treatment and medication. I get that wasn't a perfect solution but I think the argument is easily made that it was much better than what we have now. Some of the ongoing "remedies" being implemented and proposed are safe injection sites and decriminalizing all drugs in Toronto.....I'm going to predict this isn't going to make it better but what do I know, I'm just an old retired policeman.

Nothing is easy. These kids were supposed to get three square daily, too.

"British Columbia once housed 500 children.
A mass grave containing the remains of 215 children has been found in Canada at a former residential school set up to assimilate indigenous people"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57291530

Institutionalization was often a horror story (see: "One Flew Over the Coocoo's Nest"). If/when we go back to that style, it will have to be with big changes.

[UncleWede]

Originally Posted by Patton250

It’s not like police officers make a whole ton of money to begin with.

IF you read any of this thread, you would see there are a LOT of those "serving" who aren't in it JUST for the money. It is a calling to many.

They still make a decent living, while probably not enough to compensate for living with one foot in the gutter all the time.

2.7@50 ain't nuttin to sneeze at for retirement, either. Our previous chief started as a patrol officer, then first K-9, and rose to chief. After nearly 40 years in the same department, he retired making more than working. I still provide some IT support to him personally, and he's always showing me the last 'Vette he picked up, (because the previous one needed service from the dealer )


My bad, I get 2.7@55. PD gets 3@50

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

If you're more than 8-10 years in, there's no point in leaving. I would wager than someone with 5+ might as well stay. Most retirements start at 18-ish years and span up to 30+ (…the percentage is based on years of service/longevity plus the average of your 3 or 4 highest earning years), so at the very least, someone with 10 years on only need do an additional 8 to get the bare minimum retirement. One could manipulate that further by killing overtime for a few years to bump your average(s). So the simple answer is……retirement. Secondly, job stability/benefits…..which are very, very good.

Here in California, the vast majority of us make at least $120k (…$10k gross monthly) with minimal/moderate overtime on the low end as line officers/deputies/troopers. Add significant overtime and a line patrolman can clear maybe $140k. Even with zero overtime my base pay is six figures and I'm not even at top step……not even close.

Guy, that's like $8 Million Canadian dollars.

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Nothing is easy. These kids were supposed to get three square daily, too.

"British Columbia once housed 500 children.
A mass grave containing the remains of 215 children has been found in Canada at a former residential school set up to assimilate indigenous people"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57291530

Institutionalization was often a horror story (see: "One Flew Over the Coocoo's Nest"). If/when we go back to that style, it will have to be with big changes.

So the Residential School story is a long and storied thing. I've done a lot of work in fly in First Nation communities, they are plagued with substance abuse, mental health issues, physical and sexual abuse. FN isn't a simple Google/Wiki search. There is clearly problems with the system that was, but you also need to look at it through the lens that was 150 years ago moving forward. If you want to compare the two, FN Reservations vs homelessness I'm happy to talk about that as I have some experience with both.....but I don't think you'll like my take on either.

[Joekerr]

Originally Posted by Murf993

I saw something earlier today on Twitter, so it could be wrong but it was a video with the caption that San Francisco has decriminalized petty theft? It sounds bizarre but here in Ontario the Liquor Control Board of Ontario LCBO the sole seller of spirits won't stop you if you shop lift liquor, they lose over $200 Million a year to people just picking up bottles and walking out.

Are you fricking kidding me??? And here was me, for the past 20+ years paying for my bottles like an idiot? And I just did it again tonight. Frick. Frick. Frick. I had no idea. My scotch collection could have been so big, and so impressive by now.

[paquet]

Originally Posted by Murf993

Some of the ongoing "remedies" being implemented and proposed are safe injection sites and decriminalizing all drugs in Toronto.....I'm going to predict this isn't going to make it better but what do I know, I'm just an old retired policeman.

You know a lot, chief.

Personal view: I understand a safe site where clean needles are provided, would reduce the risk of disease to drug addicts.
However, the drugs in themselves are still illegal, and a sale/purchase transaction of said drugs is still incentivizing the criminal aspect (product is being moved for profit.)
Now, afore-mentioned drug addicts are required to come up with money to purchase said illegal drugs by likely doing other illegal things (assuming panhandling or legal work doesn't cover the tab completely)
Either way, it seems like a self-perpetuating cycle of misery.
The drug addict may be getting a clean needle to inject, but the rest of their lifestyle isn't having the risk reduced.
And even if they are doing legal honest work to purchase illegal drugs, there is the health effect of said drugs. I doubt it can be argued that an injectable drug is safer than other more socially acceptable intoxicants.

I recall reading many years ago that Vancouver put in safe injection sites. Those have unsurprisingly led to other issues in that particular municipality. Latest article I noticed in the National Post mentioned an underpinning of illegal drug empires fuelling everything from real estate booms to money laundering to lord knows what else.

damn, i'm chatty this evening. that's a lot of words

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Two drug dealers were walking at night in the forest. One says: " It's really creepy, I'm kinda scared."

"You're scared? I have to walk back alone."

Originally Posted by vreihen16

I'd like to laugh at this, I really would, but this is hitting a little too close to home for me right now.....

Originally Posted by Fly320s

Confess here: https://www.2addicts.com/forums/show....php?t=1042672

Right after the sunrise eclipse ended last week, we heard a woman yelling and screaming outside our house. She rang our door bell. When my DW answered, she (stranger to us and barefoot) told us that our neighbor's house was on fire and that she escaped out the back window. She also said that two people were trapped inside. My DW called 911, and before long our sleepy/quiet dead end street in the woods was full of fire trucks both volunteer and professional from as far as 15-20 miles away.

I told my DW to grab the garden hose out of our garage, and spray our roof and nearest side wall to deter the fire from jumping to our house. (It wouldn't reach the neighbor's house, and the fire was too large for a garden hose to make any difference.) When the fire was out, we noticed that the vinyl siding on that side of our house was wavy from the heat. I started an insurance claim, but miraculously the siding shrunk back into shape after it cooled down overnight. The hose spray probably prevented it from being permanently damaged.

Long story short, a low-level drug dealer expired on our front lawn. The local media reports said that they are investigating it as an arson/homicide.....

[Murf993]

Originally Posted by packet

You know a lot, chief.

Personal view: I understand a safe site where clean needles are provided, would reduce the risk of disease to drug addicts.
However, the drugs in themselves are still illegal, and a sale/purchase transaction of said drugs is still incentivizing the criminal aspect (product is being moved for profit.)
Now, afore-mentioned drug addicts are required to come up with money to purchase said illegal drugs by likely doing other illegal things (assuming panhandling or legal work doesn't cover the tab completely)
Either way, it seems like a self-perpetuating cycle of misery.
The drug addict may be getting a clean needle to inject, but the rest of their lifestyle isn't having the risk reduced.
And even if they are doing legal honest work to purchase illegal drugs, there is the health effect of said drugs. I doubt it can be argued that an injectable drug is safer than other more socially acceptable intoxicants.

I recall reading many years ago that Vancouver put in safe injection sites. Those have unsurprisingly led to other issues in that particular municipality. Latest article I noticed in the National Post mentioned an underpinning of illegal drug empires fuelling everything from real estate booms to money laundering to lord knows what else.

damn, i'm chatty this evening. that's a lot of words

Yup, so safe injection sites provide clean needles, a nurse or other healthcare/social worker and narcan.....but interestingly enough no addiction counselling....so, come use your drugs that you purchased through illegal activity and don't worry about the police being around when you use. The reality is that overdose deaths haven't really been reduced because junkies will still fix in an alley alone if they feel the need. I'm not saying criminalizing possession is necessarily the cure, but unless there is an actual push to deal with addiction issues the cycle will continue.....but this might be the bourbon talking.

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Detectors are legal here, but it won't help much. I personally don't care one way or the other because my visual estimation is enough. Jam away!

No officer. I do not have a radar detector.

Thought about it but realized I don't really drive THAT fast and probably cost me more than the rare ticket I might get.

I do have dash cam. If I am in an accident and it was caused by the other driver or some moronic biker or pedestrian I want proof I wasn't doing anything wrong. Heck, I don't even drive an hour later if I had a beer at lunch. I do take driving seriously.