[seedyrom]

When your founders crossed from the East to the West, they did it in teams and communities. They supported each other, and shared what they had.

Now one group doesn’t want to pay for another group.
Such a divide. So sad.

I paid about $60k in taxes last year, and I still pay extra for private health care on top of that.
Never visited a doctor, and obviously don’t get any subsidies....but I have absolutely no issue doing so, as it helps those that do need a hand.
I also know that if anything goes wrong, there is a massive safety net to catch me.

I know American politics/healthcare isn’t the concern of anyone else in the world ... but our news and entertainment is so populated by what is happening in the States, that we can’t help but think we need to try and sway the closed mindset

[Lups]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Ok, this is ridiculous
"these guys don't want poor people to have access to birth control, they want no social security and they want guns."
100% lie of the left. We don't want to force people with religious objections to birth control to pay for others birth control. You can buy a condom for a buck on a bathroom. Noone is stopping that. And of you're citing abortions-r-us, I mean planned parenthood who get 95% of their income for abortions and huge sums from tax dollars, that's bs also. Same objections. If you want to cry women's health, take the pp money and give it to a non abortion clinic that does women's health. Dems hate that idea.
Social security is the biggest ripoff of Americans perpetrated by the government ever. It needs reform. It was designed to give people 2 1/2 years of income. That's it. When it was made, the life expectancy after retirement as 2 1/2 years. It's now doing 30+ years. Unsustainable. It needs reform on preretirees to push off retirement to later years. It also needs the ability to grow your money faster than a CD, which it hasn't. Both are crushed by dems even though the founder of SS, FDR said it needed updates in the future and was imperfect.

Hey I'm not an American, but I've paid for pills there.

I think we two disagree wildly in many topics, but we have managed to agree on many things too. I think we should agree on my idea for teenagers with too, and not start a war in this thread over this.

And birth control is not a pill, that's access to pill while using condoms. Personally i have not had sex without both ever if not in a committed relationship.

[sleeprequired]

Originally Posted by BimmerAg

The murder rate has been steady decreasing since the 1990's for both countries, but the rate actually did go up in the year following Australia's gun ban. Basically, murder rate does not appear to be tied to whether or not gun ownership is legal

That graph for Australia’s murder rate is in absolute numbers? If so a straight line would be a decrease given our population growth over the course of 21 years.

[sleeprequired]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

In 2008, the Australian Institute of Criminology reported a decrease of 9% in homicides and a one-third decrease in armed robbery since the 1990s, but an increase of over 40% in assaults and 20% in sexual assaults.

More on Australia:

Take Melbourne, Australia’s second most populous city. Between January 16, 1998 and April 19, 2010, 36 criminal figures or partners were murdered during the Melbourne Gangland Killings.

Alas, family environments, from businesses to parks, were drawn into the mess.

The passage of gun control laws fueled our illegal arms market, and gun-hungry gangs multiplied. The significance: many gangland deaths/wars involved bullets. The tribal fights exploded after the Port Arthur massacre-inspired gun laws, against mainstream media predictions.

So much for disarmament.

Even taking those incidents into consideration. We are 1 in 100000 vs 4.88 in 100000. I’m sure it would be higher if we had similar gun laws.

That’s the point. See only the hard core gang members are using illegal guns to kill each other. It’s not people losing their shit temporarily and unleashing their stockpiled Arsenal’s on the public.

It’s the nature and severity of the available weapons that are causing the carnage. Can’t you see that?

I feel very sorry for all those people. I do. Despite my opinions on how crazy your gun laws are know that Australians in the end are behind the US and our hearts are with you guys.

[sleeprequired]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

You banned guns in 1996. What does the murder rate do in the 7-8 years following that? Congrats, it is now steadily declining... not from something that was done 20 years ago.

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html

It takes time to get them out of circulation. Many buy backs. If you guys ban guns it might take 10 years, 20 years to see the effect in statistics.

Do you really expect a ban to magically reduce the figures dramatically in one or even 5 years?

Really? Cmon people put some thought into it.

I just think this could be it, it could be a watershed moment. Don’t let statistics pushed onto you from websites with an agenda dictate your thoughts. Use that freedom to come to your own conclusions.

[sirdaft1]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Check this out, when I was in high school a friend and myself brought in our shotguns for kind of a show Intel presentation. We had to check them in at the principals office but one class time came around we went downstairs and got them and brought them up showed people how they work. Had ammunition that we passed around. When the presentation was over we packed them up and brought him back to the principals office. Pick them up on the way out of school and I think I even got on the bus. With it.

Couldn't make this up... One of my most vivid memories from Jr High was 7th grade Social Studies back in the mid 90's. The teacher was previously in 'Nam and he wanted to show us what it was like to be on the front lines. So he brought in an old rifle. I sat in the front row and he pointed the gun right at us from the front of the class. He then he had us take turns dry firing the gun at the cinder block wall.

Came out a few years later that he had an inappropriate relationship with an 8th grade female student and was fired.

Still my favorite teacher ever.

[Lups]

Originally Posted by sleeprequired

It takes time to get them out of circulation. Many buy backs. If you guys ban guns it might take 10 years, 20 years to see the effect in statistics.

Do you really expect a ban to magically reduce the figures dramatically in one or even 5 years?

Really? Cmon people put some thought into it.

I just think this could be it, it could be a watershed moment. Don’t let statistics pushed onto you from websites with an agenda dictate your thoughts. Use that freedom to come to your own conclusions.

Actually, i think they think it would happen in a day...

In Finland, making big changes was easy. If you really hunt, you're in a club. If you're in a shooting club, they have records. You want to keep any sort of a firearm in your home and you'll storage space will be checked.

I like stabbing. It gives the victim time to act more than a small movement of a finger does and even in the worst case scenario, it gives others time to run away.

[PINeely]

Originally Posted by upstatedoc

Check this out, when I was in high school a friend and myself brought in our shotguns for kind of a show Intel presentation. We had to check them in at the principals office but one class time came around we went downstairs and got them and brought them up showed people how they work. Had ammunition that we passed around. When the presentation was over we packed them up and brought him back to the principals office. Pick them up on the way out of school and I think I even got on the bus. With it.

Haha yup I remember when you would get a new shotgun and bring it to school with you, and all of the teachers would come out to the parking lot at break to check it out. Different times.

[BimmerAg]

Originally Posted by sleeprequired

That graph for Australia’s murder rate is in absolute numbers? If so a straight line would be a decrease given our population growth over the course of 21 years.

Good point, I didn't look carefully enough at the graph; but you can see the line for the USA is also decreasing sharply even though guns are legal. My point was that Australia's gun ban was introduced in 1996, and in 1997 there was not a sharp decline in murders like many would predict.

[BimmerAg]

Originally Posted by sleeprequired

Even taking those incidents into consideration. We are 1 in 100000 vs 4.88 in 100000. I’m sure it would be higher if we had similar gun laws.

How can you be sure about that? Before 1996, the gun laws in Australia and the USA were quite similar, so how do you explain the difference in murder rates in 1995? (AUS = ~1, USA = ~9) You said yourself that the rate would be higher if you had similar gun laws, so why wasn't it? Maybe it's because murder rates are more closely related to other social and economic factors than they are to gun laws.

[BimmerAg]

Originally Posted by Lups

Actually, i think they think it would happen in a day...

Please see my post #323. Guns were banned in Australia in 1996. What happened in 1997? No change

[Lups]

Originally Posted by BimmerAg

Please see my post #323. Guns were banned in Australia in 1996. What happened in 1997? No change

Yeah, i think that was my point.

[BimmerAg]

Originally Posted by Lups

Yeah, i think that was my point.

Ah, my mistake. I skipped over two words of your post and read it as "I think it would happen in a day..."

[sleeprequired]

Originally Posted by BimmerAg

How can you be sure about that? Before 1996, the gun laws in Australia and the USA were quite similar, so how do you explain the difference in murder rates in 1995? (AUS = ~1, USA = ~9) You said yourself that the rate would be higher if you had similar gun laws, so why wasn't it? Maybe it's because murder rates are more closely related to other social and economic factors than they are to gun laws.

I'd say it's related to a few things

1. we don't have massive firearms manufacturers or associations with political vested interests and significant influence
2. while laws may have been 'similar' prior i think you'll find wholesale availability of military weapons has never been possible in any practical sense in Australia. They just weren't/aren't as pervasive in any of those countries as what it is in the US. That's why it's such a hot topic for you guys.
3. It's also definitely a cultural issue too. In the US guns ARE YOU'RE RIGHT!!! sort of thing, here they are frowned up at best. Personally I enjoy shooting but will gladly sacrifice that entertainment to make sure no-one 'busts a cap in my ass' for a parking spot.

You're right though, there's bigger issues at hand than just guns. Again though, as Aussies we are with you. When the chips are down we have your back.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Lups

Hey I'm not an American, but I've paid for pills there.

I think we two disagree wildly in many topics, but we have managed to agree on many things too. I think we should agree on my idea for teenagers with too, and not start a war in this thread over this.

And birth control is not a pill, that's access to pill while using condoms. Personally i have not had sex without both ever if not in a committed relationship.

Nobody has ever tried to stop access either to any birth control, or suggested it. That's also a complete 100% fabrication of the left. As for using a pill or a condom, that's a choice between the couple. As for paying for it, yes, duh, everyone has always paid. It's not free. It cost money to make. And it's not expensive, also a fabrication of the left. The only thing the right was against was forcing people with religious convictions against abortion and birth control to pay for these. Since freedom of religion is a right in this country and its a small minority, it makes sense.

[seedyrom]

Originally Posted by sirdaft1

Came out a few years later that he had an inappropriate relationship with an 8th grade female student and was fired.

Still my favorite teacher ever.

Ahhh, so gun lovers support peadophiles. Got it.


I mean, having a binary approach to data is the only way, based on this thread.

[Flyingscotsman]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Nobody has ever tried to stop access either to any birth control, or suggested it. That's also a complete 100% fabrication of the left. As for using a pill or a condom, that's a choice between the couple. As for paying for it, yes, duh, everyone has always paid. It's not free. It cost money to make. And it's not expensive, also a fabrication of the left. The only thing the right was against was forcing people with religious convictions against abortion and birth control to pay for these. Since freedom of religion is a right in this country and its a small minority, it makes sense.

Left left left.. blame the left for everything

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by sleeprequired

I'd say it's related to a few things

1. we don't have massive firearms manufacturers or associations with political vested interests and significant influence
2. while laws may have been 'similar' prior i think you'll find wholesale availability of military weapons has never been possible in any practical sense in Australia. They just weren't/aren't as pervasive in any of those countries as what it is in the US. That's why it's such a hot topic for you guys.
3. It's also definitely a cultural issue too. In the US guns ARE YOU'RE RIGHT!!! sort of thing, here they are frowned up at best. Personally I enjoy shooting but will gladly sacrifice that entertainment to make sure no-one 'busts a cap in my ass' for a parking spot.

You're right though, there's bigger issues at hand than just guns. Again though, as Aussies we are with you. When the chips are down we have your back.

1. We don't either. The gun makers aren't that politically powerful.
2. You're proving our point. 1. These aren't military weapons. 2. They aren't responsible for the murder rate. People are killed by pistols 98% of the time, not semiauto rifles. Same as in Austrailia.
3. Yes they are our right. But that's not the cultural issue thats the problem. The cultural issue is in the lack of respect for life and the law in blighted urban neighborhoods infested with drugs and felons who belong behind bars. It's the cultural problem of using music and movies to make these parasites look like heroes and the law like villans.

[XCRN]

Guns dont kill people, people kill people. Knives dont stab people, people stab people. Cars dont run over people, people run over people. Etc doesnt etc people, people etc people. I say ban all the people!

[Flyingscotsman]

Originally Posted by XCRN

Guns dont kill people, people kill people. Knives dont stab people, people stab people. Cars dont run over people, people run over people. Etc doesnt etc people, people etc people. I say ban all the people!

Yes, that's it.. ban, no wait kill all people then they can't kill each other

[sleeprequired]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

1. We don't either. The gun makers aren't that politically powerful.
2. You're proving our point. 1. These aren't military weapons. 2. They aren't responsible for the murder rate. People are killed by pistols 98% of the time, not semiauto rifles. Same as in Austrailia.
3. Yes they are our right. But that's not the cultural issue thats the problem. The cultural issue is in the lack of respect for life and the law in blighted urban neighborhoods infested with drugs and felons who belong behind bars. It's the cultural problem of using music and movies to make these parasites look like heroes and the law like villans.

ok I said manufacturers or associations. Your saying the NRA isn’t that powerful and doesn’t have significant influence?

Massacres are facilitated and made easier by rapid fire and high capacity weapons. It makes it easier to kill many more.

I reckon it’s pretty clear, people get pissed off, sometimes bad. If there’s a gun on hand shits going to go down that otherwise might not when they’ve had time to calm down.

How can you understand the cultural issues but not see the basic consequences and probabilities. Your own graph shows how out of balance your murder rate is of other western countries. The fundamental difference is plain to see, yet you’re looking at everything else except the one thing that’s bleedingly obvious.

Give people ready access to weapons and they’ll use them. The more deadly they are, the more people will die. It’s just that simple.

That’s why you have these deadly massacres and it sucks. Do other countries have troubles with terrorists, shit yeah but so do you guys.

What you have in your country is unique in regards to firearms and the rate and frequency with which it occurs.

When you take those high end weapons off the streets, you’ll get less of it. People will resort to other available weapons and if they’re less deadly then less will die.

You can sugar coat and deny and present lots of stats but nothing will change until you want it to.

And again my argument is important to me in trying to get through however I respect your right to disagree, and more importantly I am saddened and shocked by what happened and my heart genuinely goes out to those people who have lost their family members.

I’d like to hear from people directly affected by this and hear their opinions, if and when it was appropriate.

[Flyingscotsman]

Originally Posted by sleeprequired

ok I said manufacturers or associations. Your saying the NRA isn’t that powerful and doesn’t have significant influence?

Massacres are facilitated and made easier by rapid fire and high capacity weapons. It makes it easier to kill many more.

I reckon it’s pretty clear, people get pissed off, sometimes bad. If there’s a gun on hand shits going to go down that otherwise might not when they’ve had time to calm down.

How can you understand the cultural issues but not see the basic consequences and probabilities. Your own graph shows how out of balance your murder rate is of other western countries. The fundamental difference is plain to see, yet you’re looking at everything else except the one thing that’s bleedingly obvious.

Give people ready access to weapons and they’ll use them. The more deadly they are, the more people will die. It’s just that simple.

That’s why you have these deadly massacres and it sucks. Do other countries have troubles with terrorists, shit yeah but so do you guys.

What you have in your country is unique in regards to firearms and the rate and frequency with which it occurs.

When you take those high end weapons off the streets, you’ll get less of it. People will resort to other available weapons and if they’re less deadly then less will die.

You can sugar coat and deny and present lots of stats but nothing will change until you want it to.

And again my argument is important to me in trying to get through however I respect your right to disagree, and more importantly I am saddened and shocked by what happened and my heart genuinely goes out to those people who have lost their family members.

I’d like to hear from people directly affected by this and hear their opinions, if and when it was appropriate.

Well said