[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

And you know what else? You never let me win! -cal Naughton Jr.

The boy knew it ! But he couldn't say it ...
And THAT ?
That is really sad !

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

If HAM would have said "YES" The Wolff followed on a leash my friend .

But HAM was chicken to lose his 7WC status and market value...In the fastest car of the decade !

For sure Russ having a go proved without a doubt what would have happened if Hammy had agreed heheh no wonder he backed out.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Russell was sabotaged by Toto Wolff !

It looked so easy for Russell ,let's say too easy !!!

Poor Russ had a wolf jaw over him when that happened, he had to keep his mouth closed or wolfman would have terminated any coming agreement he has for him to drive when Hammy goes.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Poor Russ had a wolf jaw over him when that happened, he had to keep his mouth closed or wolfman would have terminated any coming agreement he has for him to drive when Hammy goes.

In other words : "Some words weren't thrown into the daylight" !

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

In other words : "Some words weren't thrown into the daylight" !

My friend you could tell by the way Russ was lying on the dirt mount in Sakhir looking like he had just seen a UFO..

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

My friend you could tell by the way Russ was lying on the dirt mount in Sakhir looking like he had just seen a UFO..

Useless to say anything ...

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Useless to say anything ...

As usual you have the best clips to hand in your extensive library my friend.
Yes unfortunately Russ does appear to be a pawn that can be 'played' when required by them and controlled at will.

[Chappers 71]

C'mon now you two, stop messing about.
Even if Hamilton hadn't become an F1 driver, based on previous years driver standings Bottas would be a two times World Champion...and M0x?
Boom, drops the mic

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Chappers 71

C'mon now you two, stop messing about.
Even if Hamilton hadn't become an F1 driver, based on previous years driver standings Bottas would be a two times World Champion...and M0x?
Boom, drops the mic

#spaceship

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Perfect.

It is conjecture and innuendo that:
1) Mercedes has more money, engineering capability, political capital, and sponsors than teams like Haas.
2) not all Hamilton's wins are real wins, influenced by fairy tales like "team orders", luck, reliability and so forth and other things directly tied to 1)

3) History w/r/t 1) and 2) in F1 repeats itself, like with Schumacher's Ferrari days

It is also conjecture and innuendo to conclude on the basis of the foregoing that someone other than Hamilton, whether it's Verstappen, Senna, Schumacher or Russell may be better drivers.

It is NOT conjecture and innuendo, however, to conclude to that GOAT status should be deduced solely from official statistics, to the exclusion of any other variables that materially impact that analysis.

I need to stop reading between the lines. Like Vin Diesel said, it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning.

Quick question: How long have you been watching F1?

[Ngilbe36]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Quick question: How long have you been watching F1?

No races, just 3 seasons of D2S

jk

[rcracin]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Perfect.

It is conjecture and innuendo that:
1) Mercedes has more money, engineering capability, political capital, and sponsors than teams like Haas.
2) not all Hamilton's wins are real wins, influenced by fairy tales like "team orders", luck, reliability and so forth and other things directly tied to 1)

3) History w/r/t 1) and 2) in F1 repeats itself, like with Schumacher's Ferrari days

It is also conjecture and innuendo to conclude on the basis of the foregoing that someone other than Hamilton, whether it's Verstappen, Senna, Schumacher or Russell may be better drivers.

It is NOT conjecture and innuendo, however, to conclude to that GOAT status should be deduced solely from official statistics, to the exclusion of any other variables that materially impact that analysis.

I need to stop reading between the lines. Like Vin Diesel said, it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning.

Essentially you're saying it's teams that win races. No argument there. Drivers are part of the team. A MAJOR part.

Even Ham has said he can't compare himself to the drivers of the 60s for example. On the same hand, would the drivers of the 60s be able to compete in today's environment that seems more data driven than just motor skills and sheer nerve?

[rwheels]

Originally Posted by rcracin

Essentially you're saying it's teams that win races. No argument there. Drivers are part of the team. A MAJOR part.

Even Ham has said he can't compare himself to the drivers of the 60s for example. On the same hand, would the drivers of the 60s be able to compete in today's environment that seems more data driven than just motor skills and sheer nerve?

Nerve? What nerve.

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

Quick question: How long have you been watching F1?

2000-2006: closely
2010-2012 : less closely
2015-2019: even less closely

Became less and less interesting. You know who will win most of the time.

D2S is more interesting than the races themselves.

I even went to the German Grand Prix in 19.

Trust me I am an expert. I'm the right fit for the job.

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by rcracin

Essentially you're saying it's teams that win races. No argument there. Drivers are part of the team. A MAJOR part.

Even Ham has said he can't compare himself to the drivers of the 60s for example. On the same hand, would the drivers of the 60s be able to compete in today's environment that seems more data driven than just motor skills and sheer nerve?

Not saying the drivers aren't an integral part of winning races, but we have people sweeping facts under the rug completely to make their case.

I am not saying Verstappen is better. I'm saying in F1 it's impossible to know for sure.

None of the points I made were ever seriously rebutted by any individuals claiming their favored driver is the GOAT.

To give an analogy. If I say well your driver basically gets a 30 second head start at the beginning of a race because he's driving with the best team/technology so it's impossible to tell where he would've been without it and your response is well look at all the races he won, so he is the best, that's a joke. Forget Verstappen. Use Haas as an example. We will never know how good Grosjean could've been if he had a seat at McLaren. Guaranteed he would still be with some F1 team.

That's why I'm not making GOAT arguments. Some others are. So they have the burden of proof, but fail to account for inequity.

[rcracin]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Not saying the drivers aren't an integral part of winning races, but we have people sweeping facts under the rug completely to make their case.

I am not saying Verstappen is better. I'm saying in F1 it's impossible to know for sure.

None of the points I made were ever seriously rebutted by any individuals claiming their favored driver is the GOAT.

To give an analogy. If I say well your driver basically gets a 30 second head start at the beginning of a race because he's driving with the best team/technology so it's impossible to tell where he would've been without it and your response is well look at all the races he won, so he is the best, that's a joke. Forget Verstappen. Use Haas as an example. We will never know how good Grosjean could've been if he had a seat at McLaren. Guaranteed he would still be with some F1 team.

That's why I'm not making GOAT arguments. Some others are. So they have the burden of proof, but fail to account for inequity.

You’re refusing to account for the years when Ham wasn’t in the best car and when he won races he had no business winning. Or even pole positions. Your level of proof required for GOAT status seems to require perfect scenarios. The rest of us will likely go by good skill and statistics.

Grosjean didn’t deserve an F1 seat, yet alone a McLaren seat. Common, look at what he did at SPA. Thankfully he made it out alive last year, but that was clearly his serious lack of judgment. If he hadn’t crashed and say sent Kvyat into the barrier instead, we’d seriously be talking bout damn near criminal charges needing to be brought up. Except he did it to himself.

[e90335e36m3]

Originally Posted by rcracin

You're refusing to account for the years when Ham wasn't in the best car and when he won races he had no business winning. Or even pole positions. Your level of proof required for GOAT status seems to require perfect scenarios. The rest of us will likely go by good skill and statistics.

Grosjean didn't deserve an F1 seat, yet alone a McLaren seat. Common, look at what he did at SPA. Thankfully he made it out alive last year, but that was clearly his serious lack of judgment. If he hadn't crashed and say sent Kvyat into the barrier instead, we'd seriously be talking bout damn near criminal charges needing to be brought up. Except he did it to himself.

I am not making an argument about GOATs, just refuting what others hold as a truth. My argument doesn't require perfection but it does require the basic assumption that the sport provides a level playing field to all competitors. F1 does not and that's irrefutable. Absent that constant, it's possible to make a guess as to who one thinks the GOAT is, but to speak with the level of certainty some on this forum do is strange IMO.

[SenorFunkyPants]

True there are no absolutes in F1...but at least you can judge one driver against another and draw fairly good inferences from that.
For instance...It could be that Russel/Leclerc/Ricciardo, as drivers who have performed well against their team mates, might be able to out race Hamilton over a season in the same car.
But on the balance of probabilities...given Hamiltons performances as a rookie, in wet races and in races where he didn't have the fastest car yet still won etc...it seems unlikely.

[rcracin]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

True there are no absolutes in F1...but at least you can judge one driver against another and draw fairly good inferences from that.
For instance...It could be that Russel/Leclerc/Ricciardo, as drivers who have performed well against their team mates, might be able to out race Hamilton over a season in the same car.
But on the balance of probabilities...given Hamiltons performances as a rookie, in wet races and in races where he didn't have the fastest car yet still won etc...it seems unlikely.

This is what the naysayers can’t seem to comprehend. This is what got Ham into Merc. They knew they were building the best car. They poached Ham. Not Vettel or any other driver. Ham.

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

True there are no absolutes in F1...but at least you can judge one driver against another and draw fairly good inferences from that.
For instance...It could be that Russel/Leclerc/Ricciardo, as drivers who have performed well against their team mates, might be able to out race Hamilton over a season in the same car.
But on the balance of probabilities...given Hamiltons performances as a rookie, in wet races and in races where he didn't have the fastest car yet still won etc...it seems unlikely.

Originally Posted by rcracin

This is what the naysayers can’t seem to comprehend. This is what got Ham into Merc. They knew they were building the best car. They poached Ham. Not Vettel or any other driver. Ham.

Gentlemen, you win the Tag-Team Internet of the Day. Congratulations!!
The knowledge contained in these two posts speak to the fallacy of thinking that it's just the car.

The mental gymnastics necessary to discount HAMs excellence are worthy of a 10. And there are many here who have stuck the landing!!

[Ngilbe36]

Originally Posted by e90335e36m3

Not saying the drivers aren't an integral part of winning races, but we have people sweeping facts under the rug completely to make their case.

I am not saying Verstappen is better. I'm saying in F1 it's impossible to know for sure.

So I am partially aligned with you. In F1, its impossible to know for sure. In life we make decisions based on almost certainty all the time. We make judgements based on observations and large data sets. Im an engineer, I literally do this everyday. So yeah, we cant know with 100% certainty that Ham or Max is better or anyone else for that matter. What we can extrapolate from the data available is that Hamilton is an incredible driver. He has been in any car he has driven and has proven himself against some top level teammates. Max is also an incredible driver and has proven himself in a car of varying caliber but always top 3. His teammates have been a mix and his results against them has been mixed.

Thats all I am saying and I think a majority of others as well.

Id personally love to Ham and Max fighting for every single win this year.
2021 Drivers Championship
1/2: Ham/Ver (no order)
3/4/5/6: Per/Ric/Bot/Nor (no order)

[243Racing]

Originally Posted by Ngilbe36

So I am partially aligned with you. In F1, its impossible to know for sure. In life we make decisions based on almost certainty all the time. We make judgements based on observations and large data sets. Im an engineer, I literally do this everyday. So yeah, we cant know with 100% certainty that Ham or Max is better or anyone else for that matter. What we can extrapolate from the data available is that Hamilton is an incredible driver. He has been in any car he has driven and has proven himself against some top level teammates. Max is also an incredible driver and has proven himself in a car of varying caliber but always top 3. His teammates have been a mix and his results against them has been mixed.

Thats all I am saying and I think a majority of others as well.

Id personally love to Ham and Max fighting for every single win this year.
2021 Drivers Championship
1/2: Ham/Ver (no order)
3/4/5/6: Per/Ric/Bot/Nor (no order)

Bold Prediction: Vettel will return to the top 3 of the WDC