[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

ezaircon4jc Would that be considered the outer or inner marker?


Attachment 3623134

That can't be real, but I;m thinking it was that crazy China airport.

[Lady Jane]

Coming out of the Stargate.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

ezaircon4jc Would that be considered the outer or inner marker?


Attachment 3623134

That would be the inner...

The approach ends of the 24's and 25's are offset by a bit and the inner centerlines (24L & 25R) are 4300' apart (that matters as a couple of rules were made just for LAX) with hotels in-between. Some of our trainees, and others that should know better, would ask someone 20 miles out if they could take a "late" runway change from 25L to 24R. I, for one, would tell them a "late" change was if they had to climb over the hotels in-between the runways!

Yes, I know about the FMS stuff, but there's a reason the plane has a "steering wheel." I would always give the localizer freq and a 10º turn to join to make it easier.

[Llarry]

Continuing with my posts on Navy/Marine Corps piston-engine fighters of the 1940s, the Grumman F7F was an interesting model that did not see widespread service.

The Navy planned to build a new class of large aircraft carrier (CVB) -- which became the Midway class -- and originally contemplated putting twin-engine fighters aboard. Increasing performance required lots more engine power and at the time, the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 seemed to be at the limit of practical aircraft engine power at 2,000 hp. The approach seemed to be to increase power, double the engines for 4,000 hp. The Navy contracted with Grumman in 1941 for prototypes of a new F7F with twin R-2800s.

Wartime priorities slowed development as Grumman churned out F6Fs by the thousands, but in late 1943 the prototype F7F finally took to the air. The performance was excellent. The problem was that in the aircraft carrier environment, docile low-speed handling and acceleration were critical. When a twin-engine aircraft loses one engine upon takeoff or when landing, the asymmetry of engine power can cause it to lose control. It would be some time before aircraft manufacturers worked out that problem.

The F7F Tigercat was therefore assigned to Marine Corps land-based squadrons. The first combat-ready Marine fighter squadron arrived on Okinawa in August of 1945 and thus missed being blooded in combat by just days.

The large F7F lent itself to other missions and many were modified to or built as radar-equipped night fighters with a radar operator behind the pilot. Some of those were assigned to Navy night fighter units and conducted carrier operations, but there were accidents -- the Tigercat mostly served with Marine squadrons.

The F7F-3N night fighter version finally saw combat during the Korean War in 1951-52 until being replaced by jets.

A few F7Fs were modified into drone launch/control aircraft and served in utility squadrons in that role.

Probably the greatest contribution of the F7F came after it had been retired from military service. A number of surplus F7Fs were modified for firebombing duties with a large belly tank and served into the 1970s.

[Llarry]

The last piston-engine Navy fighter to enter service was the Grumman F8F Bearcat, which had a slightly unusual origin. The overall trend had been to ever-larger aircraft, but the Bearcat reversed that trend.

The F8F's birth can be traced back to a visit to the UK by Grumman chief test pilot Bob Hall in 1943. During his visit, Hall flew a captured German Focke Wulf 190 and was very impressed. He returned to the U.S. with the concept for a new lightweight high-performance fighter in mind and the Grumman engineers set to work.

The XF8F-1 made its first flight in August 1944. It was a smaller and lighter F4F-sized airplane with an advanced R-2800 radial engine with more power than the F6F that preceded it. Given the smaller size, the Navy planned to operate F8Fs from smaller carriers; for instance, it was estimated that a small carrier (CVL) that could operate 36 F6Fs or F4Us (in crowded wartime conditions) could operate 48 F8Fs.

While the F8F featured slightly increased engine power, it saved weight with an armament installation of four, rather than six, .50 machine guns. Other weight-saving measures were used throughout the airplane.

The Navy was impressed by the Bearcat's performance -- for a time it held the record for fastest climb -- and ordered it into production. The plan was for F6F Hellcat production to cease in January of 1946 and for production of large numbers of F8Fs in order to be ready for the planned invasion of Japan (Operation Olympic). Unlike the Hellcat, plans were made for a secondary production source at Eastern Aircraft (already building TBM Avengers and FM Wildcats).

Like the F7F Tigercat before it, the F8F missed World War II. The first squadron was in Hawaii preparing for deployment when the war ended. Plans for production at other factories were cancelled and the number of Grumman F8F-1s was cut back.

Concern over the relatively light armament of four machine guns prompted production of an F8F-1B version with four 20mm cannon.

By 1947 an improved R-2800 engine with more power and automatic engine control became available. At the same time, the height of the tail was increased slightly. The F8F-2 version was the result and the -2 was produced until 1949. There were also a few night fighter variants built, and 70 F8F-2P photo fighters served as the standard carrier-based recon aircraft until replaced by jets.

While the Navy's flight demonstration unit, the Blue Angels, had briefly flown the F6F Hellcat in 1946, they quickly transitioned to the F8F and flew Bearcats from 1946 to 1949.

A couple of the key attributes of the F8F were very similar to those of the early jet fighters: Limited endurance and range and rapid climb. But the jet fighters could engage or disengage at will; the F8F was recognized to be outclassed. The Bearcats ended their careers in training units.

It could be argued that the F4U-5 Corsair was a superior design, though larger and heavier; in night fighter form as the F4U-5N the Corsair stayed active in the fleet years after retirement of the F8F.

Surplus Navy F8Fs were also transferred to foreign air forces for use in the war in Southeast Asia. The French Armee de l'Air, the Vietnamese Air Force and the Royal Thai Air Force all flew F8Fs from 1951 until well into the 1960s.

[Llarry]

One more Navy 1940s prop fighter -- this one never flew.

The Vought V-173 was a test aircraft built to test the concept of a radical aircraft design that would have the capability to attain extremely high angles of attack -- and thereby short takeoff and landing capability. It proved successful in that regard and the Navy was interested enough to fund the development of a prototype fighter version: The Vought XF5U-1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_V-173

The XF5U came along just as the development of jet aircraft was accelerating. When technical difficulties arose, the Navy cancelled the project before the airplane's first flight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_XF5U

[Lady Jane]

Jess Dixon (1886-1963) of Andalucia, Alabama, designed a flying machine composed of an automobile, helicopter, and motorcycle. Dubbed the "Flying Ginny," the device is controversial because only one photo of the machine is known to exist, and no test-flight records survived.

[M-technik-3]

Always liked the F7F

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by M-technik-3

Always liked the F7F

One of the best descriptions of the F7F I ever heard: "It's like flying two F8Fs strapped together!"

[Llarry]

And so it began...

December 17th, 1903

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by Llarry

And so it began...

December 17th, 1903

I walked that beach in the 60's

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Llarry

And so it began...

December 17th, 1903

I rode my bike to Kitty Hawk from Denver last October to pray to the Aviation Gods to get my FAA Medical back.

(Rode the bike defined by heading south from Denver, hitting the Gulf, then turning left and keeping the water on my right shoulder until I got to Kill Devil Hills.)

(And? The offerings must have worked as I got my medical back-- it just took a *lot* longer than I'd expected).

R.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The Vought F4U Corsair was selected in 1940 to replace the earlier Grumman F4F in carrier-based and Marine Corps fighter squadrons...

Thanks for the info on the F4U. My dad was a Marine fighter pilot and flew the F4U primarily and it was his favorite as I recall him telling it. He flew several other aircraft over his years as a pilot. I've got his log books and I've been meaning to list the various aircraft he flew, but the Corsair had his heart for sure.

Here are some pics of him with the F4U. I'm sure I've posted these before but I'm feeling a bit nostalgic. Sorry for the repetition.

[Llarry]

Tomcat Thursday: For this week's version, we go back to the 1970s and take a look at the first F-14 squadrons to deploy. VF-1 "Wolfpack" and VF-2 "Bounty Hunters" took their F-14As aboard the crowded decks of USS Enterprise (CVN 65) for the first deployment of the new Grumman fighter. And those were the days when all the aircraft wore colorful markings.

[Llarry]

The U.S. Air Force is rapidly phasing out the T-1A Jayhawk. This photo depicts the last T-1A ready to depart Laughlin Air Force Base, Texas.

[Llarry]

Originally Posted by Llarry

This photo depicts the last T-1A ready to depart Laughlin Air Force Base, Texas.

But the Northrop T-38C continues in use; here's one of Sheppard AFB's T-38Cs about to land.

[Llarry]

Tomcat bonus this week: Fighter Squadron 33 was one of many units that disappeared in the defense cutbacks after the end of the Cold War. The VF-33 "Starfighters" had some very distinctive markings, as seen here on their CAG aircraft and in a plainer version on the squadron commander's F-14A aircraft.

[Llarry]

The only JATO (jet-assisted takeoff) I ever witnessed was the Blue Angel's "Fat Albert" KC-130. Some years back, the powers that be decreed that the JATO units were too hazardous and withdrew them from use.

The ultimate JATO takeoff in my opinion was that of the Boeing B-47. Wow!

And why do they call it JATO rather than RATO (rocket-assisted takeoff)? One of life's mysteries...

[BMWGUYinCO]

Originally Posted by Llarry

The only JATO (jet-assisted takeoff) I ever witnessed was the Blue Angel's "Fat Albert" KC-130. Some years back, the powers that be decreed that the JATO units were too hazardous and withdrew them from use.

The ultimate JATO takeoff in my opinion was that of the Boeing B-47. Wow!

And why do they call it JATO rather than RATO (rocket-assisted takeoff)? One of life's mysteries...

And here is a photo of a little girl who watched that JATO and obviously doesn't approve...

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Llarry

...

And why do they call it JATO rather than RATO (rocket-assisted takeoff)? One of life's mysteries...

Because they are assisting a jet...

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by Llarry

And why do they call it JATO rather than RATO (rocket-assisted takeoff)? One of life's mysteries...

It seems that the term in interchangeable:

From Wiki--

JATO (acronym for jet-assisted take-off) is a type of assisted take-off for helping overloaded aircraft into the air by providing additional thrust in the form of small rockets. The term JATO is used interchangeably with the (more specific) term RATO, for rocket-assisted take-off (or, in RAF parlance, RATOG, for rocket-assisted take-off gear).

I did an airshow at Little Rock "back in the day" and my flight engineer talked his way onto the flight deck of the Navy Blue Angel's Herc for their JATO takeoff.

He was...... VERY impressed. I had to spend the rest of the weekend listening to him explain how it would be feasible on the C-5 (no, it really wouldn't be).

IIRC, the Blue Angels have more or less given up on the JATO takeoff (which I admit, was impressive as hell). The Blue Angels more or less got hold of pretty much every remaining JATO bottle in the inventory and when they were all used up, they were gone-- it's not something the military is making more of anymore.

R.

PS: I got my Flight Crew badge back today. It's a minor thing..... but *damn* did it feel good to be walking around the Training Center with all of the other pirates!

R.

[Josh-PA]

I saw the JATO c-130 at an airshow some years back. Still one of the craziest things I've ever seen. It was just taxing down the runway then they hit the bottles and it just popped up into the air instantly and off it went. Totally awesome.