[The HACK]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

So what I'm reading between the lines is that driving a Tesla at the track is kind of like dating a fat girl. It can be fun, but you don't want your friends to see you.

I have driven S, X and 3 at the limit at a test track. I've also had the pleasure of doing the same with many exotics on a closed course. I would rather take a Fiat Abarth around a track than any Tesla.

Tracks don't have the infrastructure to support EVs, and they take way too long to charge.

And you already reached a conclusion that something is missing from the driving experience.

I get EVs as people movers, and they have potential to be more fun in the future. Torque vectoring of a 3 motor EV would be way better than M active diff. But today does not exist. Today's EVs don't come close to offering the driver experience of a good IC sports car.

I prefer to think that track in any car should be experienced, and just like sex with a fat girl, it can be good and there’s nothing wrong with it.

There’s plenty of existing infrastructure to support EVs at my local tracks. Supercharger stations within 15 minute drives, 240V outlets, etc. I typically never fill up at the track, so I don’t see what the big deal is. The engineer’s Model 3 that got driven like a village bike, her car held up just fine despite being out in multiple sessions each day. She just plugs it into a 240v outlet commonly available at our local tracks for RVs, and only had to hit the Supercharging station once more to make it through the day.

As for the lack of vroom vroom sound, I’ve driven FWD “sport” sedans on track that makes plenty of vroom vroom sounds. Between the heavy understeer and lack of the ability to use the throttle to overwhelm the rear tires, and the lack of vroom vroom sound, I’d take the lack of vroom vroom. I’m just saying there are far worse cars to take to the track. Just like there are far BETTER cars to take to the track, unless you’re in a Lotus Exige S or GTx car or McLaren. The Tesla isn’t going to supplant those for a long time.

But out of all available EVs, it’s actually pretty damn good. Good enough to churn some pretty good lap times with some good tires. The fact it doesn’t make glorious combustion noise on track isn’t going to stop me from enjoying it. And mechanically it is superior to a vast majority of ICE cars on the market today on track. Unless you step up into the M cars, P cars, and AMGs and beyond, or the answer to all “which car should I get for track” questions, there’s not many cars on the market today that will out perform a Performance Model 3 on track TBH. Not for the low $56K price point.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I prefer to think that track in any car should be experienced, and just like sex with a fat girl, it can be good and there’s nothing wrong with it.

There’s plenty of existing infrastructure to support EVs at my local tracks. Supercharger stations within 15 minute drives, 240V outlets, etc. I typically never fill up at the track, so I don’t see what the big deal is. The engineer’s Model 3 that got driven like a village bike, her car held up just fine despite being out in multiple sessions each day. She just plugs it into a 240v outlet commonly available at our local tracks for RVs, and only had to hit the Supercharging station once more to make it through the day.

As for the lack of vroom vroom sound, I’ve driven FWD “sport” sedans on track that makes plenty of vroom vroom sounds. Between the heavy understeer and lack of the ability to use the throttle to overwhelm the rear tires, and the lack of vroom vroom sound, I’d take the lack of vroom vroom. I’m just saying there are far worse cars to take to the track. Just like there are far BETTER cars to take to the track, unless you’re in a Lotus Exige S or GTx car or McLaren. The Tesla isn’t going to supplant those for a long time.

But out of all available EVs, it’s actually pretty damn good. Good enough to churn some pretty good lap times with some good tires. The fact it doesn’t make glorious combustion noise on track isn’t going to stop me from enjoying it. And mechanically it is superior to a vast majority of ICE cars on the market today on track. Unless you step up into the M cars, P cars, and AMGs and beyond, or the answer to all “which car should I get for track” questions, there’s not many cars on the market today that will out perform a Performance Model 3 on track TBH. Not for the low $56K price point.

1) Majority of tracks in North American certainly does NOT have any infrastructure to support many model 3s charging at any given moment, not at this moment, and probably the next 5 years at least, if at all. Supercharger NOWHERE near it. My local jaunt Toronto Motorsports Park's closest supercharger is 45 minutes one way. The Big Mosport track nearest supercharger is 35 minutes away. Hell the latest lapping facility near me Calabogie is literally in the middle of nowhere, and the closest supercharger? 1 hour away. My M did 50 or so laps (this was at a 4km track)on one tank of gas, and I still did not have a fuel light by the time I arrive back at the gas station. If a Tesla needed a supercharger once during every track day, that's a lot of time of driving on normal roads.

2) Not sure what performance FF sedan you are driving, but if you are trying to use power to overwhelm the rear tires in a FF you are driving it very wrong. May not be your cup of tea, but claiming that is your yardstick for performance driving is the ability to overwhelm the rear tires then perhaps you misjudged it because you have driven it wrong.

3) And absolutely nothing wrong with the 3 on the track, I am sure technologically it is superior to many cars that you can get for 56k USD new or used today, and only going to get better. But my counter argument is that not everyone gets fun from doing the fastest lap times. Many just enjoy the lap in whatever claptrap they bring. You can say that a track car should be the fastest car available, I argue that unless you are time attacking, there no such thing as 'best track car', empirically yes, but reality is that the best track car is just whatever that gets you that 'fun' from track, at a price you can afford, and if that's driving a 56k electric car then more power to you.

Look, this has gotten very off topic....

[GenXer]

Originally Posted by shadowfax

https://www.thedrive.com/news/38579/...ng-and-serious
Link title: These Repair Bulletins for Tesla's Quality Problems Are Downright Embarrassing—and Serious.

I haven't read much what the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says about other automobile manufacturers, but the Tesla ones don't sound good.

Holy cow!
I've heard about their poor fit and finish but I didn't know that they were rolling dumpster fires.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by GenXer

Holy cow!
I've heard about their poor fit and finish but I didn't know that they were rolling dumpster fires.

And sometimes they don’t even have to roll! Action starts at 1:20

Poor Audi

[SEAT TIME RULES]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I prefer to think that track in any car should be experienced, and just like sex with a fat girl, it can be good and there’s nothing wrong with it.

I wouldn't know I've never experienced it

There’s plenty of existing infrastructure to support EVs at my local tracks. Supercharger stations within 15 minute drives, 240V outlets, etc. I typically never fill up at the track, so I don’t see what the big deal is.

What local tracks are you talking about? Most tracks I've been to are lucky to have any 240V's. Sounds like your from the West Coast...


The engineer’s Model 3 that got driven like a village bike, her car held up just fine despite being out in multiple sessions each day. She just plugs it into a 240v outlet commonly available at our local tracks for RVs, and only had to hit the Supercharging station once more to make it through the day.

As for the lack of vroom vroom sound, I’ve driven FWD “sport” sedans on track that makes plenty of vroom vroom sounds. Between the heavy understeer and lack of the ability to use the throttle to overwhelm the rear tires, and the lack of vroom vroom sound, I’d take the lack of vroom vroom. I’m just saying there are far worse cars to take to the track. Just like there are far BETTER cars to take to the track, unless you’re in a Lotus Exige S or GTx car or McLaren. The Tesla isn’t going to supplant those for a long time.

You are entitled to your opinion..

I 100% don't agree with it...The Tesla 3 is not a track car and unless battery tech changes drastically it never will be. 3 laps and it starts to pull power losing roughly 3 seconds per lap. On a 60 sec track like LRP thats an eternity of time. That means I'd lap you in about 20 laps in a decent track ride.

Also the car weighs 500+lbs more than most "sports cars". I don't know your experience level is, or what you drive, or have driven at the track but that weight eats rotors, pads and tires very, very fast.

But out of all available EVs, it’s actually pretty damn good. Good enough to churn some pretty good lap times with some good tires. The fact it doesn’t make glorious combustion noise on track isn’t going to stop me from enjoying it. And mechanically it is superior to a vast majority of ICE cars on the market today on track. Unless you step up into the M cars, P cars, and AMGs and beyond, or the answer to all “which car should I get for track” questions, there’s not many cars on the market today that will out perform a Performance Model 3 on track TBH. Not for the low $56K price point.

LOL, you think the Tesla is mechanically superior to most ICE cars on the track? Maybe a 3 lap Time Trial its quick. but that doesn't mean its mechanically superior. There is nothing special about its suspension, and it has a Open Diff, not a LSD so putting power down at apex to track out is crappy. Once you get past its EV Tech the car is nothing special.

Also lap times are a great way to gauge performance but not how much fun the car is. I'll drive a ND Miata, or a BRZ , or a Camaro, Mustang, and many other cars that are less than that price point that either turn times in the range of the Tesla S, or not that far off.

On a tight track like Thompson or NHMS, the Tesla's power would be wasted and the brakes would overheat quickly, most performance street tires would get greasy and on, and on and on...Here's where a properly balanced ICE car shines and is far more fun to toss around than a 4000 lb battery.

Also, what happens when a Tesla breaks down?

There service Center network is thin : https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/se...nited%20States

Also client stories regarding service issues and parts availability are not good.

I won't own one, lease one, or even sit in one. The dash looks like George Jetson's idea of modern and the fit and finish sucks.

Finally, I have yet to see a single Tesla at any HPDE's I've instructed at. If I was assigned a student with one, I would request another student.

YMMV,
HAZMAT
2020 M2C

[5.M0NSTER]

None of my local tracks have a fast charger anywhere near them. Plus you park your car in the middle of a paved lot, or by the grass with no infrastructure around.

Plus I would go as far as saying that I don't want high voltage infrastructure at the tracks for 2 reasons:
1) No EV car today is worth a damn on a track
2) The cost for running all that copper, transformers and charging stations will simply be passed down to track day enthusiasts. And screw that.

I learned to drive on track in a C5 Z06, then a '14 GT Mustang with a solid rear axle. Then I've continued to hone my skills in the M2 (which is way easier to drive fast). And I will continue to hone my skill in other, hopefully even more capable ICE cars. A Camaro 1LE might be next for be before they disappear.

P.S. Save the Manuals. I'd much rather be 1s per lap slower, while pulling off perfect heal-and-toe downshifts, then be quicker in a car with no soul.

[G80indy]

It would be madness to buy a new car right now with WFH continuing indefinitely
Esp. considering paid-for M car under 1000 miles
Esp. considering EV tech will only improve in next 5-8 years.
It would be like buying a computer and never unboxing it, and while it sits, all the performance improvements come at lower prices.
so the sanity of it all is questionable. Not to mention battery degradation of EV's over time.

No thanks

A new car (any car; ICE or EV) would have to be so overwhelmingly compelling that it would have to make me want to sell the E92.
... so that would have to be a pretty spectacular combination of styling, performance and emotional attraction.
Tesla does NOT check those boxes

[Smgs1992]

Originally Posted by 330indy

It would be madness to buy a new car right now with WFH continuing indefinitely
Esp. considering paid-for M car under 1000 miles
Esp. considering EV tech will only improve in next 5-8 years.
It would be like buying a computer and never unboxing it, and while it sits, all the performance improvements come at lower prices.
so the sanity of it all is questionable. Not to mention battery degradation of EV's over time.

No thanks

A new car (any car; ICE or EV) would have to be so overwhelmingly compelling that it would have to make me want to sell the E92.
... so that would have to be a pretty spectacular combination of styling, performance and emotional attraction.
Tesla does NOT check those boxes

I dont think any EV is ever gonna offer emotional attraction. They just have zero appeal to me as i am a fan of mechanical engineering and driving

[Machinebuilder]

I think that if you want an affordable electric car Tesla is the way to go. A key reason is the charging infrastructure. It is a huge advantage, and it’s why I think Tesla is going to dominate for at least the near future.

I have test driven them and they are impressive even with their flaws. They are faster than ICE cars with instant torque. The Taycan is also nice but just too expensive for most people.

That all said, I recently bought a Toyota Prius Prime as a spare car instead. It was half the cost of the Tesla, works as an all electric or a hybrid, and has a 660 mile range.

[Donatello.]

Likely never.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Machinebuilder

I think that if you want an affordable electric car Tesla is the way to go. A key reason is the charging infrastructure. It is a huge advantage, and it’s why I think Tesla is going to dominate for at least the near future.

I have test driven them and they are impressive even with their flaws. They are faster than ICE cars with instant torque. The Taycan is also nice but just too expensive for most people.

That all said, I recently bought a Toyota Prius Prime as a spare car instead. It was half the cost of the Tesla, works as an all electric or a hybrid, and has a 660 mile range.

The charging infrastructure makes close to zero difference to me, our first electric car would have it be one of our two cars and we would do whatever possible to never use them. 95% of our trips would be local and I would use the ICE for long distance travel as the infrastructure for gas cars and the amount of time to refuel is massively better then the EV.

With our current jobs the number of trips per year where we go over 200 miles is really small.

I agree with you on cars like the Prius, if the goal is affordable transportation, with close to zero travel hassles and drastically cutting fuel usage its hard to beat cars like the Prius.

[GenXer]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

And sometimes they don’t even have to roll! Action starts at 1:20

Poor Audi

NOTE TO SELF: Avoid parking next to a Tesla

[SteveinArizona]

Probably never although I do envision that my next car might be a pure electric. Just not a Tesla.

[G80indy]

latest from "Digital" CES

[Vivek.]

Originally Posted by mousefarmer

It is embarrassing seeing the issues with Teslas like bumpers falling off, sunroofs bursting, huge panel gaps, doors that don't close because they are misaligned and more recently bursting side windows.

Now I've read that they are using double pane glass on the side windows for the Model 3 that would ordinarily make it much quieter but reports from users say its actually making it noisier plus there are reports of them bursting apart recently, not sure if its related to the double pane glass.

The main issue with the double pane is that it doesn't seem like they've updated the window seals. If you open the windows and then close them it causes a huge air leak. It resets once you open the door to result in only a minor air leak which is the best that could be expected of Tesla's fit+finish.

[TSM330i]

More than likely never will I buy a Tesla. I'll buy an electric car when I HAVE to, but until then, IC with a manual trans for me.

Plus, I'll more than likely buy from a real car manufacturer rather than Tesla. A neighbor of mine just got rid of his Tesla and got a new X5. He "liked" the Tesla, but was tired of the poor quality.

[David70]

VW/Audi is catching up to Tesla and there will soon be a lot more options -

Volkswagen (VLKAF) sold 231,600 battery electric vehicles in 2020, according to figures published by the company on Wednesday. While that's still less than half the number of sales Tesla (TSLA) made, it represents an increase of 214% on the previous year and shows Germany's huge auto industry is beginning to mount a challenge to the leader in electric cars.

Volkswagen has said it plans to invest €35 billion ($43 billion) in electric vehicles by 2025, and the sales figures for 2020 suggest that customers are beginning to respond. The manufacturing giant intends to launch roughly 70 pure electric models by 2030 as it races to catch up with Tesla.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/busin...ars/index.html

[RPM33]

Probably never. I would get some version of a Taycan.

[AlexFL]

Teslas are great EVs, best affordable EVs out there, but I can’t live with this exterior and especially the interior design. Just not my taste at all.

[shobotan]

Only when you get one free with a Big Mac.
That goes for any EV in my book.

[Eternalthinker]

Originally Posted by RPM33

Probably never. I would get some version of a Taycan.

I took delivery several weeks ago and prefer it over my Teslas

[Randy Johnson]

When they are under 20k and better looking than the model 3.

If you are young enough/live long enough I'm sure most will switch to an EV.

It's the future.