[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

"Negative" my friend .

1- First pic shows the remains of the fuel tank (bag-cell) "See my red circle"
The fuel tank is completely gone and melted, all the fuel is burned in the flames or it was the cause of the huge explosion ..
That's why the fire extinguishers "initially" made the fire and flames even "WORSE"
By the compressed air in the fire extinguishers , they sprayed more air into the fire !
Why was that ?
*They sprayed too far away from the flames* because they were afraid of the fire .
This was a "HUGE MISTAKE" ! They could have "KILLED" Romain !
But understandable at that moment in front of hell's fire .


2- The telemetry showed the impact was 50+ G !
Romain's speed was 221 km/h during the puncturing of the barrier.
The HALO and cockpit (monocoque survival cell) "SEEM" to be intact .
But both are cracked ..

I thought as much myself, but here are the maths...

The initial plume/fireball seemed about 10 meter tall?

Gasoline vapour density is about 3.9 kg/m3.

Combining these two with the experimental approximate scaling law, we get:

Z = 12.73 m * (V / 1 m3)^ (1/3)

=>

V = 1 m * (Z / 12.73 m)^3 ~ 0.5 m3 ~ 1.95 kg fuel ~ 2 kg

The math seems to add about up. With 110 kg, the plume due to the initial fireball would have been about four times larger in height.

We will never know until the investigation is done, my friend. I'm just glad that Romain "The Phoenix" Grojean is safe.

Cheers-mk

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

Fire extinguishers are charged with nitrogen or CO2, not air

Positive . But by the displacement (transport) of the spray through the air . The spray mixture picked up too much air .
It's for sure , they stood too far away from the fire !
By this , the air in the mixture was feeding the flames ...

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by msk340i

What he meant is that the gases in the fire extinguishers pushed the air around the fire into the fire itself because they were sprayed from a distance. If you watch it and notice the fire marshal who was on the service road spraying towards the track side he was at least 30 feet away and the contents of the extinguisher didn’t reach the fire and only pushed more air into it.

Positive as well ...

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I thought as much myself, but here are the maths...

The initial plume/fireball seemed about 10 meter tall?

Gasoline vapour density is about 3.9 kg/m3.

Combining these two with the experimental approximate scaling law, we get:

Z = 12.73 m * (V / 1 m3)^ (1/3)

=>

V = 1 m * (Z / 12.73 m)^3 ~ 0.5 m3 ~ 1.95 kg fuel ~ 2 kg

The math seems to add about up. With 110 kg, the plume due to the initial fireball would have been about four times larger in height.

We will never know until the investigation is done, my friend. I'm just glad that Romain "The Phoenix" Grojean is safe.

Cheers-mk

The announcers claimed that the fuel collector only retains 2 liters, which is substantially less than 3 gallons. Were they incorrect? I know nothing of this collector.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

The announcers claimed that the fuel collector only retains 2 liters, which is substantially less than 3 gallons. Were they incorrect? I know nothing of this collector.

Mate . Check my picture in my post above in # 201 .First pic .
The fuel tank is completely gone..It's melted or blown away by the explosion !

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Mate . Check my picture in my post above in # 201 .First pic .
The fuel tank is completely gone..It's melted or blown away by the explosion !

Yes I saw that and was watching it quite a bit yesterday. I too believe the theory is the bag was ruptured and added to the fire and find that easy to believe given the components of the fuel cell make up and the force of collision. I was merely trying to learn more about the collector

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

The announcers claimed that the fuel collector only retains 2 liters, which is substantially less than 3 gallons. Were they incorrect? I know nothing of this collector.

Same here, collector is news to me, just thought pipes from tank go to injection pressure pump (metered) then on to fuel distributor and injectors.

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by MKSixer

I thought as much myself, but here are the maths...

The initial plume/fireball seemed about 10 meter tall?

Gasoline vapour density is about 3.9 kg/m3.

Combining these two with the experimental approximate scaling law, we get:

Z = 12.73 m * (V / 1 m3)^ (1/3)

=>

V = 1 m * (Z / 12.73 m)^3 ~ 0.5 m3 ~ 1.95 kg fuel ~ 2 kg

The math seems to add about up. With 110 kg, the plume due to the initial fireball would have been about four times larger in height.

We will never know until the investigation is done, my friend. I'm just glad that Romain "The Phoenix" Grojean is safe.

Cheers-mk

You have the right equation, but keep in mind that the mass used in the calc is the mass of fuel vapor. So while there may have been 2kg worth of fuel vapor for combustion in the fireball, the rest of the fuel would still be liquid at the moment of impact. So there very well may have been a rupture of the fuel cell. But this is all just back of the napkin stuff and as you say, we'll know when the investigation is done.

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Positive . But by the displacement (transport) of the spray through the air . The spray mixture picked up too much air .
It's for sure , they stood too far away from the fire !
By this , the air in the mixture was feeding the flames ...

I doubt it. The spray from a handheld extinguisher is fairly puny. The fire will entrain much more air on its own. They were definitely too far away at first, but those guys with the extinguishers didn't appear to be wearing proper face masks/SCBA, and it must have been crazy hot getting towards that fire. So I can't blame them for starting further back and working their way closer. Major props to the medical car guys for getting right in there and helping Grosjean over the fence.

[Techno 9000]

I was attempting to fight a fire that took hold in my neighbours wooden shed this summer and the heat drove me back much further than the Marshall was. I'm convinced the heat from that fuel would be far greater as well. Well done to the medical guy getting in so close.

[FuzzyPeaches]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

The announcers claimed that the fuel collector only retains 2 liters, which is substantially less than 3 gallons. Were they incorrect? I know nothing of this collector.

Originally Posted by M5theonlyone

Same here, collector is news to me, just thought pipes from tank go to injection pressure pump (metered) then on to fuel distributor and injectors.

Most racecar fuel systems have a smaller tank, in this case called a "collector" that the main tank pumps fuel into. The engine is fed from the smaller tank. Its all about keeping a constant supply of fuel available for the pump. The big tank has fuel sloshing around everywhere, so they pump to the small one where it has much less room to escape the pump intake.

[fiveohwblow]

Originally Posted by FuzzyPeaches

Most racecar fuel systems have a smaller tank, in this case called a "collector" that the main tank pumps fuel into. The engine is fed from the smaller tank. Its all about keeping a constant supply of fuel available for the pump. The big tank has fuel sloshing around everywhere, so they pump to the small one where it has much less room to escape the pump intake.

That is what I had assumed, thank you for clearing this up. I think the main piece I dont know is the volume of the F1 collector tanks.

[FuzzyPeaches]

Originally Posted by fiveohwblow

That is what I had assumed, thank you for clearing this up. I think the main piece I dont know is the volume of the F1 collector tanks.

Gotcha. The technical regs don't lay out a size for the collector, but a quick scan of other sites show anywhere between 2.5-3.5l for Formula 1.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

I doubt it. The spray from a handheld extinguisher is fairly puny. The fire will entrain much more air on its own. They were definitely too far away at first, but those guys with the extinguishers didn't appear to be wearing proper face masks/SCBA, and it must have been crazy hot getting towards that fire. So I can't blame them for starting further back and working their way closer. Major props to the medical car guys for getting right in there and helping Grosjean over the fence.

Off-Topic ,
Well mate . In fact I already had 2 fire prevention courses from a team of professional fire brigade/officers .
The reason why is : Because the company falls under the chemical industry .
We are working with chemical granulates in injection molding machines .
So , in the last 10 years I got 2 fire prevention courses as for fire prevention .Course was 2 X 4 hours .
Special equipped truck arrived at the parking of the company and I got theoretical training and practical training .
We were going through the different kind of fires . Normal wood fires, Fuel fires , chemical fires, and finally through a frying French fries pan fire .
I had to put out all the fires in the specially equipped fire truck . So I smelled and felt the unbearable heat of the fire on my body .

In the last hour , the officer showed me a French fries pan fire ..
The oil in pan has +/- 180° C , means actually nothing , because we are melting our granulates at 400° C in our injection cylinders at the company.
But what happens when we pour or spray water on that fries pan on fire ..?
Well I felt the shockwave through the truck from the explosion of the fries pan , the special room was secured by steel walls while we watched the video of the explosion .
Or...Just open a door to feed the backdraft fire..!

In other words a burning fries pan can blow your house away . The people in the kitchen wouldn't survive it ..
The simple way is : Just throw a wet blanket over the flames of 1.8 meter height while you protect your arms and hands .
I've done that too , and it's really amazing how fast the fire was extinguished due to lack of oxygen...

[Tommysalami]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Off-Topic ,
Well mate . In fact I already had 2 fire prevention courses from a team of professional fire brigade/officers .
The reason why is : Because the company falls under the chemical industry .
We are working with chemical granulates in injection molding machines .
So , in the last 10 years I got 2 fire prevention courses as for fire prevention .Course was 2 X 4 hours .
Special equipped truck arrived at the parking of the company and I got theoretical training and practical training .
We were going through the different kind of fires . Normal wood fires, Fuel fires , chemical fires, and finally through a frying French fries pan fire .
I had to put out all the fires in the specially equipped fire truck . So I smelled and felt the unbearable heat of the fire on my body .

In the last hour , the officer showed me a French fries pan fire ..
The oil in pan has +/- 180° C , means actually nothing , because we are melting our granulates at 400° C in our injection cylinders at the company.
But what happens when we pour or spray water on that fries pan on fire ..?
Well I felt the shockwave through the truck from the explosion of the fries pan , the special room was secured by steel walls while we watched the video of the explosion .
Or...Just open a door to feed the backdraft fire..!

In other words a burning fries pan can blow your house away . The people in the kitchen wouldn't survive it ..
The simple way is : Just throw a wet blanket over the flames of 1.8 meter height while you protect your arms and hands .
I've done that too , and it's really amazing how fast the fire was extinguished due to lack of oxygen...

Nice, that sounds like a fun course. Yeah that's why you don't use water on a liquid fire, and why commercial kitchens have wet chemical extinguishers. But for the home, baking soda works as well.

I'm a fire protection engineer so all this is right up my alley.

[M5Rick]

I started a scrap wood fire stuffed inside with some crushed newspapers,I poured a 1/2 litre of gas over the pile then flicked a match onto it at the same time moving back fast, there was a boom and I felt the explosive shock with loud bang even as I was moving away.

[Tommysalami]

Grosjean's crash reminded me of when I was competing with Formula SAE back in '14 and watched a university's car catch fire while driving on course. Potential fuel rail failure. The bolt in their harness quick release supposedly had worked its way a little loose, and the driver couldn't release the harness. So the driver was engulfed in flames waving his arms until a course worker got to him with an extinguisher, and someone else cut him free. I heard the driver made it out relatively okay but with some second degree burns. They were wearing nomex suit, gloves, shoes, but man it was really scary to watch.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

Nice, that sounds like a fun course. Yeah that's why you don't use water on a liquid fire, and why commercial kitchens have wet chemical extinguishers. But for the home, baking soda works as well.

I'm a fire protection engineer so all this is right up my alley.

Awesome mate !
All I can say is : The heat was scary to approach , but I learned at lot of how dangerous a fire can be .
Backdraft fire is the hell's fire !
Meanwhile I know what fire can do , but also what mistakes can do...

[EdM5]

Doc Roberts and driver van der Merwe were approaching the inferno with open face helmets (and fortunately balaclavas). Very heroic because the heat must have been insane.
In the aftermath of this crash the protocol will surely be adjusted - full helmets for the guys in the medical car.

[racerbruce]

The FIA needs to mandate the installation of the same deceleration materials installed at the other corners of the track at T3, the location of the GRO shunt.

The Armco rails run at a 30 degree decreasing radius and make the impact much worse. Another words, the Armco barrier is not parallel with the race track, which creates a significant hazard.

http://www.impactsafetybarriers.com/...Comparison.pdf

[MKSixer]

Originally Posted by Tommysalami

You have the right equation, but keep in mind that the mass used in the calc is the mass of fuel vapor. So while there may have been 2kg worth of fuel vapor for combustion in the fireball, the rest of the fuel would still be liquid at the moment of impact. So there very well may have been a rupture of the fuel cell. But this is all just back of the napkin stuff and as you say, we'll know when the investigation is done.



I doubt it. The spray from a handheld extinguisher is fairly puny. The fire will entrain much more air on its own. They were definitely too far away at first, but those guys with the extinguishers didn't appear to be wearing proper face masks/SCBA, and it must have been crazy hot getting towards that fire. So I can't blame them for starting further back and working their way closer. Major props to the medical car guys for getting right in there and helping Grosjean over the fence.

Yes and Thanks!!

We are all worse than Armchair Quarterbacks. We're Armchair Accident Investigators. Has there ever been a more ridiculous thing to be?

Let's wait for the investigation before announcing a conclusion.

[SenorFunkyPants]

You would have thought that the FIA could have found a better barrier than armco by now.
It shouldn't be possible for a nose of an F1 car to be able to get between two layers and separate them.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Verstappens comments on Albon:

“I don’t think that if you are 30 or 40 seconds behind your team-mate, that’s very good,”

Just because something is true doesn't mean you have to be an arrogant douche and say it.