[NemesisX]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/19/justic...html?hpt=hp_t2

(CNN) -- A second Maryland woman has been charged with murder in connection with the Friday stabbing deaths of two children during an exorcism attempt, authorities said.

Two children died of multiple stab wounds and two others are hospitalized with undisclosed injuries, police said.

Monifa Denise Sanford, 21, was charged with two counts of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted first-degree murder, Montgomery County Police said.

Earlier, authorities announced that the children's mother, Zakieya L. Avery, 28, also faces the same charges. Police said Saturday that Avery stabbed two of her children to death and wounded two others while attempting an exorcism.

Sanford was briefly hospitalized after the incident and was charged after she was released. Police believe she is not related to the family, but lived at the same residence in Germantown.

Norell Harris, 1, and his sister, Zyana Harris, 2, suffered fatal stab wounds while their siblings, who are 5 and 8, were hospitalized, authorities said.

"Cases like this are heartbreaking," county Police Chief Tom Manger said. "Our thoughts are with the family and friends of the victims."

Police said they found the four children Friday morning after a neighbor called 911 to report suspicious activity at the home. The neighbor reported seeing a car with a door open and a knife next to it.

Exorcism is a ritual aimed at defeating purported evil spirits or demons. Authorities did not provide details on why they suspected exorcism.

"Investigators have learned that the two defendants believed that they were performing an exorcism. The investigation into this motive and other aspects of the crime continue at this point," police said.

Police were called to the home Thursday over reports of an unattended child in a car. By the time they got there, the child was not in the car and no one came to the door, authorities said.

"Prior to officers arriving, two women exited the townhouse, retrieved the child and re-entered the home," Montgomery County Police said. "Officers attempted to speak with the residents, but received no response at the door. "

After the neighbor's call, authorities notified county child protective services and asked them to follow up. It's unclear whether they did.

Both women are being held without bail. Information on their attorneys was not immediately available.

[TrevorM3]

hang both.

[PINeely]

Nuts

[Nate4641]

Hopefully someone in jail tries to exorcise them with a little shank.

[3000GT MR]

Judge me if you want, but I truly believe in torture. If your willing to kill people you should be tortured no questions asked. I'm all for a little"Law abiding citizen" type torture. If someone did that to my family, you better hope the cops get to you first. I truly believed if we used death row inmates for science experiments for medicines, surgery, med practice ,etc we would be much more advanced in medicine. I also believe crime rates would drop tremendously. (based off other countries). I won't even get into what I would do to rapest and child molester's. Not sure if the freedom of speech could handle that one.

[Redline2894]

you hear something new everyday.....

[Billup]

1 and 2 years old?


Both need to be hung and publicly stoned. If they are on anything but 23 hour lockdown, someone will surely take care of them before their maker.

[mbanks21]

Originally Posted by 3000GT MR

Judge me if you want, but I truly believe in torture. If your willing to kill people you should be tortured no questions asked. I'm all for a little"Law abiding citizen" type torture. If someone did that to my family, you better hope the cops get to you first. I truly believed if we used death row inmates for science experiments for medicines, surgery, med practice ,etc we would be much more advanced in medicine. I also believe crime rates would drop tremendously. (based off other countries). I won't even get into what I would do to rapest and child molester's. Not sure if the freedom of speech could handle that one.

Can I "like" this post?

[Devious21]

What's sad is that we don't challenge people's beliefs enough.

This woman believed in demons and spirits. If her beliefs were true and the children really were possessed, then she was in the right. She was trying to save her children. Maybe their spirits are now eternally saved and happy in heaven. If what she believes is true, then she's in the right and we're wrong.

The reason we condemn her is we assume her beliefs are false. But we live in a tolerant and complacent culture that has the attitude that if you believe something for no good reason, it's your right and you're not hurting anyone. That's obviously a short sighted position, as demonstrated here.

Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. Your beliefs inform your actions. They also affect your ability to form additional beliefs going forward. In that sense, false beliefs poison the well.

Our culture is way too tolerant of unsubstantiated claims made by alternative medicine, religion and the supernatural. If this news story makes you angry, check out http://whatstheharm.net/ and click on exorcisms. there's dozens of examples of this happening. The victims are children most of the time.

We need to become a more intellectually honest and a more intellectually INTOLERANT society when it comes to these harmful beliefs.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Devious21

What's sad is that we don't challenge people's beliefs enough.

This woman believed in demons and spirits. If her beliefs were true and the children really were possessed, then she was in the right. She was trying to save her children. Maybe their spirits are now eternally saved and happy in heaven. If what she believes is true, then she's in the right and we're wrong.

The reason we condemn her is we assume her beliefs are false. But we live in a tolerant and complacent culture that has the attitude that if you believe something for no good reason, it's your right and you're not hurting anyone. That's obviously a short sighted position, as demonstrated here.

Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. Your beliefs inform your actions. They also affect your ability to form additional beliefs going forward. In that sense, false beliefs poison the well.

Our culture is way too tolerant of unsubstantiated claims made by alternative medicine, religion and the supernatural. If this news story makes you angry, check out http://whatstheharm.net/ and click on exorcisms. there's dozens of examples of this happening. The victims are children most of the time.

We need to become a more intellectually honest and a more intellectually INTOLERANT society when it comes to these harmful beliefs.

Excellent post. You've touched on something that I'm quite passionate about.

[Endless619]

Originally Posted by Devious21

What's sad is that we don't challenge people's beliefs enough.

This woman believed in demons and spirits. If her beliefs were true and the children really were possessed, then she was in the right. She was trying to save her children. Maybe their spirits are now eternally saved and happy in heaven. If what she believes is true, then she's in the right and we're wrong.

The reason we condemn her is we assume her beliefs are false. But we live in a tolerant and complacent culture that has the attitude that if you believe something for no good reason, it's your right and you're not hurting anyone. That's obviously a short sighted position, as demonstrated here.

Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. Your beliefs inform your actions. They also affect your ability to form additional beliefs going forward. In that sense, false beliefs poison the well.

Our culture is way too tolerant of unsubstantiated claims made by alternative medicine, religion and the supernatural. If this news story makes you angry, check out http://whatstheharm.net/ and click on exorcisms. there's dozens of examples of this happening. The victims are children most of the time.

We need to become a more intellectually honest and a more intellectually INTOLERANT society when it comes to these harmful beliefs.

Great post if you believe in this sort of thing.

However I am one that was brought up in a family that does not believe in ghosts, demons, possessions or any evil spirits. I am sorry to say but they just do not exist. There truly is an explanation for everything we see and do. This is murder, anyway you dice it, regardless of a belief.

A majority of the scientific community agree that this type of behavior is triggered by mental instability or a number of other things.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Endless619

Great post if you believe in this sort of thing.

However I am one that was brought up in a family that does not believe in ghosts, demons, possessions or any evil spirits. I am sorry to say but they just do not exist. There truly is an explanation for everything we see and do. This is murder, anyway you dice it, regardless of a belief.

A majority of the scientific community agree that this type of behavior is triggered by mental instability or a number of other things.

You're taking his first paragraph out of context. Devious doesn't believe in ghosts or spirits. And more fundamentally, he's critical of people holding unsubstantiated beliefs.

Unsubstantiated beliefs - whether they derive from religion, alternative "medicine," or the supernatural - should be challenged if proponents are unable to present sound evidence in support of their religious, "medical," or supernatural claims.

The story in question is an example of unsubstantiated religious thinking gone tragically awry.

[rjd598]

Why would she perform an exorcism herself why stabbing? Have the movies been that misleading?

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by NemesisX

You're taking his first paragraph out of context. Devious doesn't believe in ghosts or spirits. And more fundamentally, he's critical of people holding unsubstantiated beliefs.

Unsubstantiated beliefs - whether they derive from religion, alternative "medicine," or the supernatural - should be challenged if proponents are unable to present sound evidence in support of their religious, "medical," or supernatural claims.

The story in question is an example of unsubstantiated religious thinking gone tragically awry.

When I wrote my post I had worried that it may be misinterpreted, especially for people who's first language isn't English, because of the way I chose to phrase it.

Nemesis clarified it perfectly.

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by rjd598

Why would she perform an exorcism herself why stabbing? Have the movies been that misleading?

That made me laugh.

Are you implying she shouldn't have performed the exorcism herself because she wasn't a licensed professional? What qualifications do you normally look for in your exorcist?

You asked why she stabbed them as part of the process. Did she perform the procedure incorrectly? What exorcism manual do you follow? Maybe she's using the 2nd edition that included the stabbing section that your manual omitted. Maybe she follows exorcisms of a different culture that are different than yours.

[DougLikesBMW]

Originally Posted by Devious21

What's sad is that we don't challenge people's beliefs enough.

This woman believed in demons and spirits. If her beliefs were true and the children really were possessed, then she was in the right. She was trying to save her children. Maybe their spirits are now eternally saved and happy in heaven. If what she believes is true, then she's in the right and we're wrong.

The reason we condemn her is we assume her beliefs are false. But we live in a tolerant and complacent culture that has the attitude that if you believe something for no good reason, it's your right and you're not hurting anyone. That's obviously a short sighted position, as demonstrated here.

Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. Your beliefs inform your actions. They also affect your ability to form additional beliefs going forward. In that sense, false beliefs poison the well.

Our culture is way too tolerant of unsubstantiated claims made by alternative medicine, religion and the supernatural. If this news story makes you angry, check out http://whatstheharm.net/ and click on exorcisms. there's dozens of examples of this happening. The victims are children most of the time.

We need to become a more intellectually honest and a more intellectually INTOLERANT society when it comes to these harmful beliefs.

I truly wonder if this will ever actually happen.

The majority of the population is composed of brainless imbeciles and there is no way to cull them, so I'm not holding my breath. They are a virus for which there is no cure. They just keep breeding and spreading, exponentially.

The movie Idiocracy is real.

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by Dashmann

^A very good post. Many similarities can be drawn to other religious groups like Christian Science, who don't believe in modern medical intervention, just prayer and spiritial healing and other religions that believe a test of faith involves handling poisonous snakes.

The Supreme court has upheld these are protected rights under the First Amendment. It will be interesting to see if defense's legal team present their argument under this pretense. My guess the fact they were minors will factor heavily, as they did not have the prerequiste knowledge.

Either way it's bound to stir up tons of controversy.

You bring up a good point. On the topic of the first amendment, I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting I think it would be a good idea to make these beliefs illegal or that we'd be better off without the right to believe in these things.

What I am saying is that we, as a society, need to recognize that giving someone the right to believe in crazy shit, doesn't require us to surrender our own right to criticize them for it.

If a friend believed that drinking anti-freeze would cure his heart burn, you'd probably correct him and ridicule him for it. Not in a hateful way but in a manner to ensure he wouldn't do it again. "Are you out of your f@$!ing mind?!"

That kind of response is important for us because we naturally seek approval. Tolerance can provide false approval which is potentially harmful. I believe we too often give these beliefs a free ride without being challenged like they should. Whenever people come up with stuff like this, they should be told they're an idiot by people who care about them BECAUSE they care about them. Tolerating bad ideas just says "I don't respect you enough to tell you that's stupid".

This video of Sam Harris demonstrates the kind of ridicule I'm talking about and why it's important.

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by Devious21

What's sad is that we don't challenge people's beliefs enough.

This woman believed in demons and spirits. If her beliefs were true and the children really were possessed, then she was in the right. She was trying to save her children. Maybe their spirits are now eternally saved and happy in heaven. If what she believes is true, then she's in the right and we're wrong.

The reason we condemn her is we assume her beliefs are false. But we live in a tolerant and complacent culture that has the attitude that if you believe something for no good reason, it's your right and you're not hurting anyone. That's obviously a short sighted position, as demonstrated here.

Your beliefs don't exist in a vacuum. Your beliefs inform your actions. They also affect your ability to form additional beliefs going forward. In that sense, false beliefs poison the well.

Our culture is way too tolerant of unsubstantiated claims made by alternative medicine, religion and the supernatural. If this news story makes you angry, check out http://whatstheharm.net/ and click on exorcisms. there's dozens of examples of this happening. The victims are children most of the time.

We need to become a more intellectually honest and a more intellectually INTOLERANT society when it comes to these harmful beliefs.

Okay, needed to read your entire comment, at first I thought you were kind of defending these people.

People just need to stop "believing", everyone believes something or the other and if yours does not match theirs, there lies the issue.

Either it is a facts and can be proven or demonstrated. it is like 2 + 2 = 4 if everyone can not agree then it is not fact. Leaving out the people who do not have the skills to answer the question.

We now created a society which it is now wrong to challenge someone "beliefs" therefore we have people like this running around.

When a mother kills her own kids there is something serious wrong with this person. Ever mother I ever met will become very irrational when it come to protecting their kids from harm. My wife and I have very good relationship and she has turned on me when she though I was somehow not protecting or doing what she thought was in the best interest of the kids.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by Endless619

Great post if you believe in this sort of thing.

However I am one that was brought up in a family that does not believe in ghosts, demons, possessions or any evil spirits. I am sorry to say but they just do not exist. There truly is an explanation for everything we see and do. This is murder, anyway you dice it, regardless of a belief.

A majority of the scientific community agree that this type of behavior is triggered by mental instability or a number of other things.

You totally missed the point.

[PINeely]

Whatever became of those parents who let their kid die of a burst appendix because they thought that they could pray it away?

Edit: 5 years probation...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-16-dies.html

[Devious21]

Originally Posted by PINeely

Whatever became of those parents who let their kid die of a burst appendix because they thought that they could pray it away?

Edit: 5 months probation...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-16-dies.html

Damn, that's sad. Sounds like a miserable death.

[NemesisX]

Originally Posted by Devious21

You bring up a good point. On the topic of the first amendment, I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting I think it would be a good idea to make these beliefs illegal or that we'd be better off without the right to believe in these things.

What I am saying is that we, as a society, need to recognize that giving someone the right to believe in crazy shit, doesn't require us to surrender our own right to criticize them for it.

If a friend believed that drinking anti-freeze would cure his heart burn, you'd probably correct him and ridicule him for it. Not in a hateful way but in a manner to ensure he wouldn't do it again. "Are you out of your f@$!ing mind?!"

That kind of response is important for us because we naturally seek approval. Tolerance can provide false approval which is potentially harmful. I believe we too often give these beliefs a free ride without being challenged like they should. Whenever people come up with stuff like this, they should be told they're an idiot by people who care about them BECAUSE they care about them. Tolerating bad ideas just says "I don't respect you enough to tell you that's stupid".

This video of Sam Harris demonstrates the kind of ridicule I'm talking about and why it's important.

I knew the language of your first post sounded familiar

I'm a huge fan of Sam Harris. I've watched all of his videos/debates (many of them multiple times!) and I've read all of his books as well. I think anyone would be hard pressed to find a more eloquent speaker.