[T Bone]

So we have had a lot of idle speculation on the future of M cars. Given our knowledge of BMW Corporate. I think that I can put forward a reasonable theory about the next generation of M cars. This thread is for discussion purposes.....

Assumptions

• Given the emissions and fuel economy rules, BMW will not be pursuing an outright power strategy. We shouldn't expect beasts like the Audi RS6 that try to compensate for weight by adding power. We should expect the same power output from the engines or a slight power bump (i.e. 5-10%)
• One of the areas that BMW M will focus on will be weight. Weight the universal evil....it affects acceleration, handling, economy etc.... I would expect the F10 / F12 to weigh less than today's E60 / E63
• BMW M and Formula 1 will be tied at the hips for the foreseeable future. For BMW to capitalize their investment in F1, the M cars will use as much of the technology of the F1 cars as possible. It appears F1 will NOT likely adopt turbo charging but will adopt Kinetic Energy Recovery systems as early as 2009. These KER technologies would be phased in from 2009 to 2013

T-Bone's prediction of the F10 M5 and F12 M6:


Weight:

• M5 - 3800 pounds / M6 - 3500 pounds

Power:

• 550 hp from a normally aspirated V10 (call it Mark II) with more "Efficient Dynamics" technologies from engines like the N54 and N64 (minus the turbos).... direct injection, electric water pumps and new ones like cylinder shut down

Transmission:

• I think the big areas of innovation for BMW M will be materials (to control weight) and the transmission. If you read the article below....F1 will be introducing KER technologies that will seek to recover kinetic and perhaps heat energy from braking. This hybrid type of system is much different than the hybrids we see today that convert kinetic energy to electricity and then store it in a heavy battery only to convert back to kinetic energy later.
• The KER systems have to be much more efficient. They would need to be in the 80-90% efficiency range. While F1 is quite open as to how it will allow manufacturers to implement these technologies, it would make sense for BMW to integrate KER technologies into the transmission / flywheel. There are KER technologies that can be implemented at the wheels....but this would increase overall weight and more importantly, unsprung weight.
• So I predict a MDCT type of transmissions with KER technologies that will add kinetic energy into the system during acceleration to bump effective power from 550 hp to over 600 hp. Also I would expect KER technologies to allow cylinder shutdown to be more effective to vastly improve fuel economy in city environments.
• It is rumored the F1 cars will have a "boost" button to increase torque on track out....but for roadcars, BMW would automate that...probably using the throttle position modulate the torque delivery
• So the new MDCT transmission we see in the M3s is already obsolscent.

If BMW puts together such a package, we should expect to see a car that outhandles and out-acceleraters today's M5 / M6 with a 25% improvement in fuel economy.

This is my theory......thoughts? Of course, this all gets translated in to the new M3

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/04...tem-from-2009/

[E82tt6]

Isn't there well sourced information that BMW is sticking turbos on the V10 for their R8 fighter?

I hope your assessment is right. IMO, less weight is always the best way to extract the most overall performance from your cars. Ferrari has been talking about an elise-weight car for the next Super Ferrari.

[Year's_End]

Your predictions are pretty reasonable imo. They're definitely going to pursue a weight loss plan, but I'm still betting on FI, regardless of F1's position on that matter. I could be wrong, and to be honest I hope I am.

I have read about the KER energy system, and it would be interesting to see how BMW plans to implement it into their road-going cars, if they do that is.

I honestly haven't a clue as to what they're going to do. Power output increases will most likely be minimal at that, and I'm hoping that they attack weight problems as a top priority over everything else.

[SteelTorque]

Forced Induction FTW

[slipknot]

only 550hp?..it still cant beat RS6 580hp and AMG with 612hp , and by the way the current Hurricane has 730hp so I expect way beyond 550hp , and yeah maybe this is off topic

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by slipknot

only 550hp?..it still cant beat RS6 580hp and AMG with 612hp , and by the way the current Hurricane has 730hp so I expect way beyond 550hp , and yeah maybe this is off topic

550's reasonable imo. It's weight that the M GmbH is pursuing now, not power.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by slipknot

only 550hp?..it still cant beat RS6 580hp and AMG with 612hp , and by the way the current Hurricane has 730hp so I expect way beyond 550hp , and yeah maybe this is off topic

Read my thoughts above.... Weight, emissions, KER.....

No one will buy this product if it is slower than the current generation of product....

[southlight]

Originally Posted by T Bone

No one will buy this product if it is slower than the current generation of product....

Honestly, I'd buy an equally fast car that consumes 5+ l less per 100km.


Best regards, south

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by southlight

Honestly, I'd buy an equally fast car that consumes 5+ l less per 100km.


Best regards, south

I don't that would be acceptable to consumers or to BMW ///M. Nobody pays for cleverness if it doesn't perform. People pay for performance and companies get immortalized if they happen to be clever too.

BMW cannot also develop products in isolation. Bumbling companies like Audi is just throwing horsepower at the problem. AMG is also adding HP.

BMW will never be the slowest car. In fact, you can bank on BMW ///M being the fastest and most economical.

[sparkyg]

The KER is interesting, but how are they going to manage the gyro effect, unless there is two KER devices each spinning in the opposite direction, that would work.

[slipknot]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

550's reasonable imo. It's weight that the M GmbH is pursuing now, not power.

okk...like how? M5 is a luxurious saloon , how much does it weight anyway 1800kg? or 2000kg like M6 cabrio?...all Im saying is that this horse power 'war' is getting out of hand because of RS6 and E 63,65 AMG..BMW is losing this one , the situation is not like 5 , 10 or 15 years ago when bimmers where the strongest of these three..right?...why isnt there a 7 series M version? why is there S 65 AMG? it has no competition at all? 1000Nm?....Im saying this because my dad owns S Class. Why do they have more torque than BMW? 630 vs 520 (E AMG vs M5)..Obviously becuase of 6,2l engine (760iL has 6.0)..Im pissed

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by slipknot

okk...like how? M5 is a luxurious saloon , how much does it weight anyway 1800kg? or 2000kg like M6 cabrio?...all Im saying is that this horse power 'war' is getting out of hand because of RS6 and E 63,65 AMG..BMW is losing this one , the situation is not like 5 , 10 or 15 years ago when bimmers where the strongest of these three..right?...why isnt there a 7 series M version? why is there S 65 AMG? it has no competition at all? 1000Nm?....Im saying this because my dad owns S Class. Why do they have more torque than BMW? 630 vs 520 (E AMG vs M5)..Obviously becuase of 6,2l engine (760iL has 6.0)..Im pissed

Wow, there are so many issues with your post....where to start?

Weight is the universal evil. It affects handling and acceleration. An engine's HP is one of several factors that determine performance. The other being weight and power delivery.

EU (I believe you are part of the EU no?), is mandating strict emissions standards and you cannot increase hp without increasing emissions.

Cars like the new RS6, current M5 / M6, AMG 63 / 65 are dead ends.

[BMWPower06]

T-bone- i think you went a little too light on the weight of the M6 I say ~3700lbs

[BMWPower06]

Originally Posted by slipknot

okk...like how? M5 is a luxurious saloon , how much does it weight anyway 1800kg? or 2000kg like M6 cabrio?...all Im saying is that this horse power 'war' is getting out of hand because of RS6 and E 63,65 AMG..BMW is losing this one , the situation is not like 5 , 10 or 15 years ago when bimmers where the strongest of these three..right?...why isnt there a 7 series M version? why is there S 65 AMG? it has no competition at all? 1000Nm?....Im saying this because my dad owns S Class. Why do they have more torque than BMW? 630 vs 520 (E AMG vs M5)..Obviously becuase of 6,2l engine (760iL has 6.0)..Im pissed

LOL wat do u expect bro, its a 6.2L engine, of course itll make more tq, the funny thing is, that even with all the extra displacement the AMG V8, still doesn't make more hp than the ///M V10. And of course it doesn't rev as high either.

BMW hasn't made an M7 because its not trying compete with Mercedes. The M cars are supposed to be fast, sporty, relatively light, and good handling. The 7er is quite possibly the worst base to start for a car like that. Hence the AMG S class is nothing but a straight-line beast

For the record- the E60 M5 weighs just over 4000lbs

[OBI_agent]

Great thoughts OP

Anyway, I just wanted to ask....Is it possible that the FI(turbo'd V10) rumours are true??
Reading your article, you firmly believe the turbo technology won't make it to the next V10....Why not? There are rumor's that AMG is going to the 'turbo' way....Why not the 'M' division?

In my opinion, the possibility of a TT V10 M5 are high. The emission standards are forcing automakers to look at alternate ways for performance along with economy. Adding two blowers along with direct injection, can do wonders to a engine's performance with the economy.

I dont think you can achieve a great mileage with a high revving engine. Its just too damn difficult. + the cost to make it fuel efficient will be

On a ending note, dont mind my question,....just sharing my opinion over here

[OBI_agent]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Your predictions are pretty reasonable imo. They're definitely going to pursue a weight loss plan, but I'm still betting on FI, regardless of F1's position on that matter. I could be wrong, and to be honest I hope I am.

+1

Haha....I made a similiar point.

[OBI_agent]

Yo TBone....you don't need to answer my questions.....I found your answer on the other thread on 5post....Formula one isnt adapting to FI so the M division won't either

But still, I would love FI...the high torque could do wonders

Originally Posted by OBI_agent

Great thoughts OP

Anyway, I just wanted to ask....Is it possible that the FI(turbo'd V10) rumours are true??
Reading your article, you firmly believe the turbo technology won't make it to the next V10....Why not? There are rumor's that AMG is going to the 'turbo' way....Why not the 'M' division?

In my opinion, the possibility of a TT V10 M5 are high. The emission standards are forcing automakers to look at alternate ways for performance along with economy. Adding two blowers along with direct injection, can do wonders to a engine's performance with the economy.

I dont think you can achieve a great mileage with a high revving engine. Its just too damn difficult. + the cost to make it fuel efficient will be

On a ending note, dont mind my question,....just sharing my opinion over here

Originally Posted by T Bone

This is what I humbly predict....

No turbos but KER....

..........

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Wow, there are so many issues with your post....where to start?

Weight is the universal evil. It affects handling and acceleration. An engine's HP is one of several factors that determine performance. The other being weight and power delivery.

EU (I believe you are part of the EU no?), is mandating strict emissions standards and you cannot increase hp without increasing emissions.

Cars like the new RS6, current M5 / M6, AMG 63 / 65 are dead ends.

I know, right? That's what I want to say. Man we need like voice chat on this forum cuz there's no way I'll type up a long enough explanation to counter his statements.

[slipknot]

ok guys Im glad that Im wrong then , I know the others need bigger engines to pull out same horse power as bmws...
what Im talknig about is this

woudnt it be great to have 7er like this? so it could compete with S 65 , or X5 M with 500hp to beat up ML AMG and Porsche n stuff like that....
oh I hope u dont mind the german language , this one about G power is the best by now