[Dackelone]

Chaos Kreisel von Erfurt


The Germans have a good reputation for being great drivers. But over in the former East Germany (DDR) they have no idea of what to do when entering a traffic circle! One MUST yield to traffic in the traffic circle! But no one has told these Erfurt people!

[nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn]

Is that a cop sitting in the lower middle of the screen? If so, smart guy.

Honestly, if there were no other cars around, I'd do the same things.

[Buegie]

all that and no crashes...

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by ferrari355fi

Is that a cop sitting in the lower middle of the screen? If so, smart guy.

Honestly, if there were no other cars around, I'd do the same things.

Those are Taxi's parked waiting for customers.

Originally Posted by Buegie

all that and no crashes...

Well... these are German drivers! lol

[Augenbrauezug]

This is why I hate all other drivers on the road.

[Dackelone]

I guess traffic circles could be worse... lol

[david in germany]

I just saw the original video. Actually the people entering a standard circle have priority. There is one like that in Spyer as well. No yield on entry and right before left rule applies. Most traffic circles have the yeild signs now but not all.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by david in germany

I just saw the original video. Actually the people entering a standard circle have priority. There is one like that in Spyer as well. No yield on entry and right before left rule applies. Most traffic circles have the yeild signs now but not all.

No they don't. They must yield. They only have priority IF the road they are driving on (into the traffic circle)IS a priority road(yellow diamond sign) - otherwise traffic in the circle have the "right of way" and car approaching the circle must yield to traffic.

Dack

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

No they don't. They must yield. They only have priority IF the road they are driving on (into the traffic circle)IS a priority road(yellow diamond sign) - otherwise traffic in the circle have the "right of way" and car approaching the circle must yield to traffic.

Dack

Sorry brother, in this case you are incorrect. Check the next circle you hit. In Germany now there are only 2-3 left without the yield signs and in those circles right before left rule applies. If there is the yellow diamond than there must be a yield sign in the circle. When I get on a real computer I will pull the law. ( I had to research this before when I worked with the provost marshal office)
Still love ya man!

[david in germany]

So,
Wenn keine vorfahrtregelnden Verkehrszeichen vorhanden sind, gilt bei der Einfahrt in den Kreisverkehr Rechts vor Links (§ 8 Abs. 1a StVO). Die Fahrzeuge auf der Kreisfahrbahn sind dann gegenüber dem einfahrenden Verkehr wartepflichtig.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vorfahrt

[Efthreeoh]

Okay, so did anyone notice that the design of the circle is totally F'd. There is no median in the middle of it, so it's really just a circle drawn on the pavement, which is just completely confusing. Apparently German traffic engineers are no on par with their automotive counterparts...

LOL

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Okay, so did anyone notice that the design of the circle is totally F'd. There is no median in the middle of it, so it's really just a circle drawn on the pavement, which is just completely confusing. Apparently German traffic engineers are no on par with their automotive counterparts...

LOL

Yes, that one is really substandard. I have seen quite a few that had to take out part of the center island because truckers were just cutting anyways with the trailer. Reward laziness..

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by david in germany

Sorry brother, in this case you are incorrect. Check the next circle you hit. In Germany now there are only 2-3 left without the yield signs and in those circles right before left rule applies. If there is the yellow diamond than there must be a yield sign in the circle. When I get on a real computer I will pull the law. ( I had to research this before when I worked with the provost marshal office)
Still love ya man!

I'm gonna have to drive to a few traffic circles around here and have a look-see. Maybe its a Bayern thing... but I have never seen a traffic circle with yield signs INSIDE the t-circle. Approaching traffic ALWAYS has to yield to cars driving INSIDE the circle. I've asked a few German friends and I am waiting to hear that they have to say.


I did find a few pics of traffic circles - and this is what they look like around here in my part of Germany(Bavaria)...






Rechts vor Links... Right before Left(traffic)... the inner car MUST yield to the outside car...





PS: thanks for still loving me man! You make me smile.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Okay, so did anyone notice that the design of the circle is totally F'd. There is no median in the middle of it, so it's really just a circle drawn on the pavement, which is just completely confusing. Apparently German traffic engineers are no on par with their automotive counterparts...

LOL

Normally you only see those type of traffic circles(without an inner island) in industrial park areas - or areas with large trucks need to turn around in.

w/islands...




w/o an island - so large trucks can pass on thru. Also in Germany we have LONG double trucks, so circles with islands are tough for those truckers to navigate around.

[paliknight]

Cant speak for Germany, but all countries Ive visited give the right of way to traffic inside the circle.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Okay, so did anyone notice that the design of the circle is totally F'd. There is no median in the middle of it, so it's really just a circle drawn on the pavement, which is just completely confusing. Apparently German traffic engineers are no on par with their automotive counterparts...

LOL

Completely agree. I've never seen a traffic circle (called a "rotary" around here) without an island in the middle. I actually understand some of the confusion.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Railgun

No worse than the cluster fk of roundabouts here. Worst traffic idea ever.

DuPont Circle in Washington DC is the worst I've seen. It has inner "lanes" of traffic and outer lanes of traffic divided by a median strip between them. And it actually has four (4) traffic lights controlling traffic! I started driving it when I was 16.

[KingOfJericho]

Wow... is that real?!!?

[Viffermike]

Dackelone and @david in germany (HATE that you can't tag a forum member with spaces in their screen name!): Traffic circles are designed to do two things:
1). Keep traffic flowing
2). Enable route changes for traffic at the point of transfer

By requiring those outside of the circle to yield to those inside the circle, traffic experiences minimal unintentional bottlenecking and flow continues because the inside of the circle clears quickly as traffic chooses its route and exists the circle.

If traffic inside the circle were required to yield to traffic entering the circle, the opposite would happen: the circle clogs up quickly and easily, does not flow evenly, and potentially creates a jam.

In flow dynamics theory, yielding functions best when entering junctions because flow converges, then diverges, thus continually clearing out the junction. To reverse that naturally creates a clog condition because the junction cannot naturally clear itself. This applies to all types of flow dynamics, not just traffic.

The only reason I can see a traffic engineer requiring that traffic within the circle yield to traffic entering is to purposefully create a clog at the intersection -- which is a possibility given the footage and the relatively light traffic in it. But it's stupid, stupid, stupid, and goes against every basic tenet of modern traffic management practice.

(Then again, we are talking about East Germany here ... ?!?)

[david in germany]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Dackelone and @david in germany (HATE that you can't tag a forum member with spaces in their screen name!): Traffic circles are designed to do two things:
1). Keep traffic flowing
2). Enable route changes for traffic at the point of transfer

By requiring those outside of the circle to yield to those inside the circle, traffic experiences minimal unintentional bottlenecking and flow continues because the inside of the circle clears quickly as traffic chooses its route and exists the circle.

If traffic inside the circle were required to yield to traffic entering the circle, the opposite would happen: the circle clogs up quickly and easily, does not flow evenly, and potentially creates a jam.

In flow dynamics theory, yielding functions best when entering junctions because flow converges, then diverges, thus continually clearing out the junction. To reverse that naturally creates a clog condition because the junction cannot naturally clear itself. This applies to all types of flow dynamics, not just traffic.

The only reason I can see a traffic engineer requiring that traffic within the circle yield to traffic entering is to purposefully create a clog at the intersection -- which is a possibility given the footage and the relatively light traffic in it. But it's stupid, stupid, stupid, and goes against every basic tenet of modern traffic management practice.

(Then again, we are talking about East Germany here ... ?!?)

Not just east German, ALL Germany. To understand what we have discussed you must understand the German traffic standard. Right Before left or, Yield to the right. This is the German standard where there is no signage.
Thus, if there is no yield sign posted you must yield to the right. Germany had Identified the positive function of a traffic circle but it does go against the yield to the right rule and therefore they post the yield in most circles now.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by david in germany

Not just east German, ALL Germany. To understand what we have discussed you must understand the German traffic standard. Right Before left or, Yield to the right. This is the German standard where there is no signage.
Thus, if there is no yield sign posted you must yield to the right. Germany had Identified the positive function of a traffic circle but it does go against the yield to the right rule and therefore they post the yield in most circles now.

Yep: familiar with the German standard; I lived there for several years in the 1980s and cycled thousands of kilometers on the roads while there.

That said, Germans generally travel out of the country and are familiar with how roundabouts work. The modern roundabout was invented in the UK in the early 1960s; France has more than any other country; the standard -- including the 'offside priority' rule, which is a fancy term that basically means yield to the content of the circle -- was adopted almost worldwide by the mid-1960s; and the Netherlands has been at the forefront of integral 'mini-roundabout' implementation to serve pedestrians, cyclists and MVs (i.e., cars) equally for a good decade now.

This goes against ALL of that. Germans don't live on an island (pun semi-intended). Whoever designed this should be fired (and hopefully will after the first fatality happens).

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Railgun

Most of the ones I've run across pretty much failed that one.

Thing is ... imagine what traffic lights would do in place of one.

Granted, they're only as good as the people who use them properly -- and plainly, people are stupid when left to their own devices (pun partially intended). But they generally work decently in Europe because people are trained to be better drivers -- and they don't get licenses until they've proven that they are better drivers. (This is partially why roundabouts generally don't work well in the U.S.)

Throwing a procedural wrench into the roundabout rulebook like the one in Erfurt does traffic flow and traffic safety no favors. It's inane, and IMHO, potentially deadly.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Railgun

I'll see your DuPont Circle and raise you one Magic Roundabout.

Okay, that's totally fucked up. I'd love to see a Ken Block drifting video through all that traffic.