[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

There aren't that many MT ///M5's, but the demand was, and continues to be, strong enough to warrant it. Where the ///M3 and ///M4 are concerned, an MT will likely always be an option here. North America is a really big market for BMW ///M.

Yes and the guy with the DCT will win every race.

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

As for vinyl versus digital.....


....purists still prefer vinyl, which is why vinyl is STILL produced today, and can be found in all of the niche record stores here. It's not going anywhere.

Yes and the Amish are probably the sole market for the horse drawn carriage manufacturers today, LOLOL!!!!!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

Yes and the guy with the DCT will win every race.

Yes and the Amish are probably the sole market for the horse drawn carriage manufacturers today, LOLOL!!!!!

Not everybody cares about racing. Your focus is too myopic.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Not everybody cares about racing. Your focus is too myopic.

Well it sure is a big focus on the car part of the boards here and I can appreciate the idea of the whole "feel" of shifting and pushing the clutch pedal, I get that. However, I also get that it's a pain in the ass to get up and change records every twenty minutes and to constantly have to clean the vinyl and worry about static and not dropping the stylus on the record and on and on. In the same way, it's a pain in the butt to have to use a manual in a city with lot's of hills like the one I live in. A manual is also a pain in the butt during rush hour stop and go traffic and on and on.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

Well it sure is a big focus on the car part of the boards here and I can appreciate the idea of the whole "feel" of shifting and pushing the clutch pedal, I get that. However, I also get that it's a pain in the ass to get up and change records every twenty minutes and to constantly have to clean the vinyl and worry about static and not dropping the stylus on the record and on and on. In the same way, it's a pain in the butt to have to use a manual in a city with lot's of hills like the one I live in. A manual is also a pain in the but during rush hour stop and go traffic and on and on.

You need stronger legs. If traffic tires/fatigues your left leg, I'd recommend a regular squat regimen and a more efficient driving technique for the daily grind.

P.S. I live in So.Cal. Traffic central! Never once have I shared that perspective on MT driving in traffic.

P.P.S. Here's a vibrator. It's more efficient at getting your lady off than you are, and it takes much less work. We wouldn't want you to fatigue your hips, quads, hamstrings and upper body to produce a desired result even if it takes a lil longer.......now would we? It's all about efficiency and ease right? I keed! I keed!

[2011CrazE89]

Originally Posted by ddk632

Lamborghini Aventador - no manual
Pagani Huayra - no manual
Nissan GT-R - no manual
(Surely there are others but these come to mind at first)

These are not sports cars?

I love manuals as much as the next guy - one of my all time dream cars I hope to pick up in the not too distant future only comes in 5 speed manual (E36/8 M Coupe) - but I think in today's day and age with dual clutch boxes, it will rule out way too many contenders which truly are sports cars in every other sense of the definition.

I spent 15 years drag racing and the autos were blowing the standards out of the box all day. You will never shift faster than an automatic transmission. If calibrated right the autos are brutal on the track.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You need stronger legs. If traffic tires/fatigues your left leg, I'd recommend a regular squat regimen and a more efficient driving technique for the daily grind.

OK, so now I know why you have to do all those squats! LOLOL!

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

P.S. I live in So.Cal. Traffic central! Never once have I shared that perspective on MT driving in traffic.

Yeah, the only place I have ever been where there is rush hour traffic on the highway at 1am in the morning (the 405).

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

P.P.S. Here's a vibrator. It's more efficient at getting your lady off than you are. It's all about efficiency and ease right? I keed! I keed!

No, I have gotten plenty of lectures about that, the personal contact is totally necessary to the female appreciation of the experience. If she doesn't get that, she might as well use the toy.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

OK, so now I know why you have to do all those squats! LOLOL!

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

P.S. I live in So.Cal. Traffic central! Never once have I shared that perspective on MT driving in traffic.

Yeah, the only place I have ever been where there is rush hour traffic on the highway at 1am in the morning (the 405).

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

P.P.S. Here's a vibrator. It's more efficient at getting your lady off than you are. It's all about efficiency and ease right? I keed! I keed!

No, I have gotten plenty of lectures about that, the personal contact is totally necessary to the female appreciation of the experience. If she doesn't get that, she might as well use the toy.[/QUOTE]
Lol! One must maintain, and it looks like your lady has the right idea.

Yeah, the traffic patterns here are stupid. It's packed when it shouldn't be and often free flowing when it should be jam packed.

[ddk632]

Originally Posted by 2011CrazE89

I spent 15 years drag racing and the autos were blowing the standards out of the box all day. You will never shift faster than an automatic transmission. If calibrated right the autos are brutal on the track.

Agreed, no argument there from me.

The automatic transmission in my X6M is amazing, the most aggressive automatic I've ever had the pleasure of driving. I still enjoy putting it in manual shift mode and shifting myself, though. It is more fun and more involving. Even though it's not faster.

I still fondly look back on my first BMW, an E36 325i with manual transmission and 187ish horsepower and smile at how it felt to drive it. It was pure fun. And that too was in LA, with all the traffic. But once you got into the canyons, man, it was heaven.

No need to debate manual vs auto vs DCT ... Its common knowledge that DCT (and highly tuned automatics) shift faster than manuals do.

Manual is about control and feel and driver involvement more so than about pure speed and extra 10ths of a second lap times. I think the manual purists concede this point regularly.

I don't consider myself a manual purist, but I love manuals and still want one. I can understand the manual purist point of view up to an extent. Where that extend ends for me (but not for true manual purists) is that I consider dual clutch boxes to not disqualify an otherwise high performance car from being a "sports car." I think that view is antiquated at this point.

I wonder how many new generation drivers have even ever seen or driven a manual, and how these numbers will dwindle as the years go by.

[Golddots]

I think of the m3 as a sporty car but not a real sports car.

I think of these as sports cars: miata, s2000, lotus Elise/exige, z06, viper, most Ferrari etc.

[Sedan_Clan]

Over time it'll become a built in theft deterrent (...or so popular culture would have you believe). I run across people all of the time who can't drive a manual. It makes me chuckle, especially when it's a boy racer in their stance'd [insert Jap or Euro car here]. When I pull over vehicles, I tend to ask the owner's of automatic sports cars or modded cars why they didn't buy a manual. The answer is usually that they don't know how to drive an MT.

[Golddots]

I wont be surprised when down the road a hpde student will have a real manual and the instructor will not know how to heel toe downshift.
Three pedals for me every time. I don't care how much faster a dual clutch is.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

You need stronger legs. If traffic tires/fatigues your left leg, I'd recommend a regular squat regimen and a more efficient driving technique for the daily grind.

P.S. I live in So.Cal. Traffic central! Never once have I shared that perspective on MT driving in traffic.

P.P.S. Here's a vibrator. It's more efficient at getting your lady off than you are, and it takes much less work. We wouldn't want you to fatigue your hips, quads, hamstrings and upper body to produce a desired result even if it takes a lil longer.......now would we? It's all about efficiency and ease right? I keed! I keed!

Agreed Chan! It's amazing that we equate clutches with horse drawn carriages. NYC traffic where it takes 140 min. to go 6 miles, I'll take a clutch any day over a slushbox or twin clutch auto. Amazing to have to make such a sacrifice (oh let me see how exciting it is to move from P to D, and then to R) just because one wants to shave .1 sec off a track time.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by 414hpbabyshuttle

I wont be surprised when down the road a hpde student will have a real manual and the instructor will not know how to heel toe downshift.
Three pedals for me every time. I don't care how much faster a dual clutch is.

And how about not paying $4000k on avg. when the thing breaks (I heard the original SMG was 10k from one person)? My Nissan has 230k and on the original clutch.

It's pretty weird for anyone to say, here's a DCT/PDK aka automatic. You like this better. It's so fun and amazing to move from P, to D, and back to R, and then P. Very weird.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by John 070

Agreed Chan! It's amazing that we equate clutches with horse drawn carriages. NYC traffic where it takes 140 min. to go 6 miles, I'll take a clutch any day over a slushbox or twin clutch auto. Amazing to have to make such a sacrifice (oh let me see how exciting it is to move from P to D, and then to R) just because one wants to shave .1 sec off a track time.

Ah ha....that's IF they even track (..and most don't!!).

[MrPrena]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

A race car is a car modified specifically for racing, so while almost no cars are race cars, pretty much any car can be a race car. Actually I think that's a much easier thing to define and agree with than sports car.

yup, depends on classifications, it can be easy or difficult to make it a (or build it from scratch) racecar.

[wrsbmw]

Originally Posted by John 070

And how about not paying $4000k on avg. when the thing breaks (I heard the original SMG was 10k from one person)? My Nissan has 230k and on the original clutch.

Yes the SMG wasn't so good, the DCT is totally a different ballgame.

Originally Posted by John 070

It's pretty weird for anyone to say, here's a DCT/PDK aka automatic. You like this better. It's so fun and amazing to move from P, to D, and back to R, and then P. Very weird.

I drove a four speed for many years and this is way better. In high school I had a TR3 followed by a 1973 Capri with 4 on the floor and then the 1975 Vette with four on the floor. Then after I was married and drove beaters, the Chevette Scooter I drove was four on the floor and then I had a Volvo 264 with four on the floor. So I am very well acquainted with manual transmission because that is all I drove for about 20 years.

The DCT is all about shifting at the RPM you want but no having to coddle the clutch so you don't drop it or wait for it to grab or whatever. It's lightning fast on the switch and if you choose to let the computer do it, it's way faster for 1/4 mile racing and of course around town or in stop and go traffic you are free to drink coffee with the gearshift hand if you want to leave it in automatic mode.

[John 070]

Originally Posted by wrsbmw

Volvo 264 with four on the floor.

DOH! What a bad motor! I had one in the 90's, and nobody would work on it, not even the dealer (heck those techs are 60+ today, but the PRV V6 was before their time). That was the only vehicle that truly needed 3,000 mile oil changes or else replace the cams. And the thing took 7.4 quarts. Which reminds me, I had a special Snap On driver for the drain plug, no clue whatever happened to it...

[dtn]

Not sure how this thread morphed into DCT vs MT but I'll play.

I can't wait until they come out with a magical TCT, a clutch for current gear, ready for upshifts, and ready for downshifts. That was the only complaint I had about the DCT. Surgical upshifts, but still somewhat laggy downshifts.

[fcman]

No car that is a direct derivative of a normal family car should be considered a sports car. They are either sports coupes (M3/M4) or muscle cars (GT500/ZL1/Hellcat). The only non-exotic cars I consider to be sports cars at the moment are the 370z (debatable, but passes in my book), the Z4, the BRZ/FRS, boxster/cayman/911, corvette, and the MX5 I think wraps it up. That's my opinion at least

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by dtn

Not sure how this thread morphed into DCT vs MT but I'll play.

I can't wait until they come out with a magical TCT, a clutch for current gear, ready for upshifts, and ready for downshifts. That was the only complaint I had about the DCT. Surgical upshifts, but still somewhat laggy downshifts.

Is that not what a dual clutch is designed for? One clutch handles odds, the other handles evens. If you're in an odd gear, say 3rd, the other clutch will be ready to snag 2nd or 4th.

[kevinbahnz]

For me a sports car is a 2 door 2 seater(or 2 +2 really small seats in the back) that handles well and a manual transmission.

[128Convertibleguy]

So - people who say a sports car has to have a "manual", as in a clutch pedal and a stick.

Are you saying that a Corvette with a manual transmission is a sports car, but putting an automatic in transforms it to a non-sports car?

If so, I think tin top versus convertible top is a much bigger change to the driving experience. The shifting thing applies to a very small percentage of drive time, the top thing is 100% of the time when the top is down. It's the true "sports car" experience to me. My opinion is a Corvette convertible, top down, with an automatic, on a twisty mountain road on a nice day delivers way more of a "sports car" experience than a hardtop with a manual.

Then there's whether high end Ferraris and Lambos and Porsches, etc. all magically cease to be sports cars when fitted with paddle shifters and no clutch. Even moreso than the Corvette, the top down experience with a Ferrari 458 with paddle shifters on a twisty mountain road versus a clutch and a stick on a 458 hardtop? Not that you can get one.

"The only transmission available on the 458 is a dual-clutch 7-speed GETRAG gearbox" So the mid engine two seat Ferrari 458 is not a sports car? Ridiculous. If the "manual" folks consider that setup to be manual, hey, my Steptronic has a manual shift mode.

A final counter example. If this isn't a sports car nothing is. Utterly pure car, one seat, no trunk space. Nothing unessential, no windscreen, no AC, no heat. Can be had street legal in some places.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...00-v-8-preview

"A Sadev six-speed sequential race gearbox with an adjustable limited slip differential and customizable gearsets conducts power transmission to the rear wheels. Shifting is actuated by a paddle airshift system capable of firing off 40-millisecond upshifts and 50-millisecond downshifts. You can get the transmission down to first gear from sixth in less than a second. Automatic shifting is supported as well. The transmission also permits no-lift shifts. This, when coupled with that 500-bhp V-8—well—just make sure you’re pointed where you want to go when you hit it hard pal."

Nostalgia is great, but serious performance car people have moved on.